I cranked up the tivo last night to watch my daily dose of O’Reilly (the 12/26 show isn’t up yet), and who do I see hosting for him, but Michelle Malkin. Now, normally, I like Michelle – she’s intelligent, she’s a minority female who is a conservative, and she can be just snarky enough to be funny, while not indulging in inconsistent analogies that demean her opponents, a la Ann Coulter.
However, last night, she got on the subject of the illegal aliens who were arrested at the Swift meat packing plants, and unfortunately, she has adopted the inhuman, hard right position on illegal aliens which smart leaders like GWB have not indulged in. So Michelle, though I am a lowly blogger like you once were, I hope you read this and take heed, because you are just too pretty and smart, and I don’t want to lose you to the dummies on the fringe.
Michelle, here’s where I think you are largely missing the mark on the issue of illegal Mexican immigrants.
Table of Contents
1. You are focusing on the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law
You appear intent on characterizing illegal immigrants as criminals because they are breaking our immigration laws. But I want to warn you against making the Pharisaical mistake of being correct by the letter of the law, while misjudging the vast majority of immigrants whose intent is to provide for their families.
And intent is really what you are missing. Were the civil disobediences of the civil rights movements done by criminals? What about those who try to stop the murders at abortion clinics by blocking entrances? Sure, they disobeyed civil laws, but they were obeying a higher law.
So what higher law are immigrants obeying? The are desperately trying to feed their families. Many spend months away from their loved ones just to be able to send money home to their poor families. And I am not appealing to pity here, I am saying that their INTENT is to do good, not evil, and you are on the wrong side of this issue because you are falling into the trap of judging by outward appearances.
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.“
And please don’t resort to the lame retort “I am not God, I am just human” because Jesus himself said that WE ought to judge righteously, not merely by outward appearance. As much as possible, we ought to judge fairly as God does. That too is the higher law.
2. You are obfuscating the nature of their misdeeds by placing Mexican illegals in the same category as more heinous criminals
For example, when you call those who use false Social Security numbers “identity thieves,” you give the impression that they are preying upon innocent people with the INTENT of stealing their money, and using their credit cards to buy things, as many modern identity thieves do.
So while, like modern identify thieves, these immigrants are using the Social Security numbers of others, their intent and their actual actions are VERY different. First, they only use false SSNs to get employment. They pay income taxes into Social Security accounts that they will never be able to get money from. And they don’t steal money from bank accounts or make fraudulent credit card purchases.
I am not saying that this is a harmless activity. For those people whose SSNs are being used, the government thinks they are making more money than they are reporting on their taxes, so this may be causing some scary audits for American citizens.
But why haven’t we heard much about these type of problems for citizens? My guess is that the majority of SSNs used do NOT belong to living citizens, for two reasons. First, if illegals want to avoid detection, they will want to use an SSN that is not contested by a living person. Second, while there is a black market for identity information such as SSNs, do you have any data on how these are chosen? I don’t either, but I would bet that, aside from numbers just made up on the spur of the moment, most SSNs used do not belong to living citizens.
But to reiterate, you are purposely mis-characterizing the INTENT of illegals, ascribing to them criminal MOTIVES which in large part DO NOT EXIST.
And I know from whence I speak. My wife was an illegal, with a falsified SSN and driver’s license (a real California ID which she had to pay $800 for on the black market). When she became legal, we got her a real SSN, and when we tried to clear it up, it turns out that no living person owned the old SSN. I now have many friends and even family who arrived illegally, and to a man they are responsible middle-class home owners working hard, paying taxes, and contributing to our society.
3. The economic impact of illegals
Far right anti-immigrant spokespersons like to quote stats about how little illegals pay in taxes compared to how much they use in free social services ($7M compared to $30M or so). But you are missing one other important fact – many of these immigrants are paid much less than their possible American counterparts (not to mention they probably lack benefits), and so are saving the American businesses millions in wages.
But there is another problem with this approach to illegals. Not only are you indirectly accusing them of being lazy and irresponsible by relying on our social programs (and most are incredibly hard working and honest Catholics), but you are reducing humans to their monetary worth, which is a shame. No compassionate conservative should measure the worth of others by their economic “value.”
Now, if they are an economic drain because they ARE irresponsible or lazy, like many of the deadbeat dads that unfortunately populate many of our inner city ghettos, then you could make an economic argument – but only because of the lack of virtue and honorable INTENT. But such is NOT the case with our brothers from Mexico.
4. You are missing the real criminals here
There are two real criminals here. The primary one is the corrupt Mexican government that needs to implement important economic and ethical reforms. If you are really interested in righteousness rather than merely protecting the selfish interests of Americans, you should focus on getting the US to pressure it’s southerly neighbor into such reforms.
Second, our Byzantine immigration system is criminally negligent. It is a humanitarian shame. My own mother-in-law has not been able to see her children or grandchildren for 8 years because she can’t get through the system (part of the problem is the Mexican visa system as well). Thankfully, we all go visit her in Mexico when we can afford to take our families there, but I can attest to the unfair and expensive nature of the whole project. Our family has spent almost $3000 on legal fees trying to get her here, and she is still not here.
How many poor, or even middle class families are going to pay for a lawyer that may or may not be able to get relatives here, when you can pay $2000 to have them smuggled here? It’s maddening for those of us who want to obey the law, and we suffer for it. When you have grown children and grandchildren, you may understand what a difficult thing it is to wait for the impersonal, inconsistent, and capricious system to decide if you can see your family.
And there is a another class of lesser criminal here, the American employers who hire illegals. But they are NOT the primary problem here – because if you punish them before fixing the above two problems, you really end up hurting the American farmers and employers, our economy, and again, the desperate people who are trying to feed their families.
5. Jobs people don’t want to do – a half truth
I know you dislike the argument that Mexicans do the jobs that others are unwilling to do, and cite the long line of workers at the Swift plants as evidence that this argument holds no water. You are partially correct about this. Over the last few years, Mexicans have gotten out of the dangerous and slave-like conditions of crop picking, and moved into the safer and more lucrative professions such as construction and other blue collar jobs like meat packing. Americans are willing to work those jobs. The unwanted jobs argument applied better when illegals worked primarily in the fields. But please, be careful to acknowledge that this argument still holds true for agricultural workers, even if it is no longer true for other professions.
Interestingly, crop picking positions are being increasingly taken by illegals from beleaguered Thailand.
6. What Would O’Reilly Do?
One thing I love about Bill is that he really does stick to his convictions, and doesn’t go along with the extreme right when he thinks they are wrong. And in this case, Bill agrees with President Bush, and wisely so, as indicated, for example, by his talking points from March 2006.
But there is a solution that carries both a stick and a carrot.
- One, immediately move the National Guard to the border to back up the border patrol. If this is done, there’s no need for a $1 billion wall. Illegal crossings would decline drastically.
- Two, detain anyone caught trying to cross the border illegally and deport them ASAP. No more catch and release.
- Three, inform businesses that hiring illegal workers will lead to expensive fines first time, prison time for employers second time.
- Four, allow those illegals already in the USA to register as foreign residents without fear of reprisal. An illegal would have 60 days to do that. Failure to register would be a felony with mandatory prison time.
- Five, once the foreign resident is registered, he or she would be issued temporary working papers and would have to pay a $3,000 fine for breaking the immigration law. The money would be deducted from
paychecks over a three-year period.- Six, after three years, that foreign resident could apply for citizenship, but such a privilege would not be guaranteed. The applicants would take their place in line behind those who have obeyed the immigration rules.
- Seven, a legal guest worker program would be set up to meet the needs of businesses. Foreign countries could send a list of applicants and a pool would be formed.
- And finally, any immigrant evading taxes in the USA would be immediately deported. So there you have it. A comprehensive plan to stop the madness, but Congress is not going to do it.
What would Bill say if he found that you had taken a position in opposition to his on HIS show? OK, he’s a nice guy, he’d probably let you pass on that. But I think you would be wise to consider his position – he’s no intellectual or ethical/moral slouch, and he’s got a few years of wisdom on both you AND me.
7. Let’s focus on the real enemies of America and humanity – far-left liberals, abortion and Islam
I know that you focus on other issues more prominently (I love Hot Air, especially Jihad Watch with Robert Spencer). But listen, most of these illegals from Mexico are devout and honest Catholics, who have more in common with us, both culturally and in values, than differences. They contribute so much to the pro-family culture that we are trying to maintain against the onslaught of liberal illogic and licentiousness masquerading as “freedom.”
Let’s not make enemies of these people by treating them with contempt, with accusations of criminal intent, and with failing to fix the real injustices and causes behind illegal immigration. They are, in fact, ready to join is in our fight for religious freedom, Christian faith and values, and for the family. Let’s not miss this opportunity to serve them and enlist them in the causes that we fight for, and with which they already agree.
CONCLUSION: Michelle, we need you, but we need you to be one step above mere rhetoric
Michelle, you are one of our darlings – cute, smart, articulate, and a conservative minority female to boot. The left HATES people like you, which makes us giggle with glee. But please, take some lessons from the wildly popular O’Reilly – don’t fall into the trap of the far right, because they can be extremists, and will hurt our cause (for more on the traps of extremism, see The Civil Rights Movements of our Time). As I like to say:
Never align yourself with an extremist, even when he agrees with you, because in the end, he will bring shame upon you and your cause.
Last night I watched a show by NBC with Tom Brokaw called Immigration in America. It was very interesting. It focused on a town in Colorado where a construction company had a hard time keeping bids due to a lack of workers.
It helped me to be more aware of the shortage of native workers in various fields based on their location in America.
Here is the URL with more information. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16318369/ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16286635/
I cranked up the tivo last night to watch my daily dose of O'Reilly
The Coolest 8 Year Old In The World Talks About O'Reilly
Here it is for those accessing by proxy server…
Cineaste, it is very sad to think people consider that cool. Brats arent cool to me.
Lack of respect for others is one cause of violence. She is being taught that (lack of respect) very well, obviously. I am sure if her parents keep letting her talk that way she'll end getting into many fights and WOW wont that be good for her.
And also I believe they went a little bit far in telling her to say that the republican party has caused many deaths in the name of religion.
My kids are respected enough to never flaunt my political opinions to the interworld.
Regarding this video of the child:
1. She is not the "smartest" child in the world, but rather, one of the most indoctrinated. Not only is a child of this age generally incapable of developing such rhetoric, she has already been taught to despise religion, to disrespect others, and to please the juvenile adults who put her up to such a prank. It is a shame that liberal ideologues are willing to abuse their children like the bad religionists they criticize.
2. Let me repeat that this child's rhetoric is neither logical nor supported by historical fact. What makes her endearing to liberals is that she spouts their own childish conclusions, and they think it is cute because she is acting out their own juvenile thoughts and attitudes.
3. Again, the fact that she blames religion for the world's atrocities is foolish because (1) it lumps all religion into one evil basket, a typical anti-intellectual secularist ruse, and (2) she neglects to inform us that atheism, one of the world's religions (or anti-religions, or whatever you call pseudo-faiths) is responsible for more murders than all religion put together, esp. in the last century.
And a note to you atheists – I didn't say that atheists are responsible for these horrors, but the few who carry it to its logical conclusions – just like there are good Muslims, there are good and well-meaning atheists out there – they are just duped by an evil, false system of belief that leads to atrocity based on its core teachings. Atheism is as bankrupt as Islam. (Secularism has its merits).
4. This little girl has nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is my response to Michelle Malkin, and a reasonable approach to immigration.
If I were you I wouldn't hold my breath getting a reply from Michelle, and I doubt your biblical argument will mean much considering she doesn't profess to be a Christian. I believe she is a Catholic, but I have never heard her profess Christ publically….maybe I missed it if she did.
I also doubt she'll care what you think given the fact that she's written a few books on the subject you're debating.
I also think that Coulter is way funnier and better educated myself. But hey, that's just me ;)
She is not the "smartest" child in the world, but rather, one of the most indoctrinated. Not only is a child of this age generally incapable of developing such rhetoric, she has already been taught to despise religion.
She is totally indoctrinated in rhetoric. That's the point. It would be just fine with you if it was Christian rhetoric but since it's not then it's not okay with you. Seeker, indoctrinating kids into dubious religion is par for the course but when you see a kid who is indoctrinated on the left you go crazy. Here is a video of republicans getting their kids to worship a cardboard cutout of Bush.
Let me repeat that this child's rhetoric is neither logical nor supported by historical fact. [creationism] What makes her endearing to liberals [conservatives] is that she spouts their own childish conclusions, and they think it is cute because she is acting out their own juvenile thoughts and attitudes.
This sounds like a kid brought up in evangelism to me.
Again, the fact that she blames religion for the world's atrocities is foolish because (1) it lumps all religion into one evil basket, a typical anti-intellectual secularist ruse, and (2) she neglects to inform us that atheism, one of the world's religions (or anti-religions, or whatever you call pseudo-faiths) is responsible for more murders than all religion put together, esp. in the last century.
Now who is spouting garbage rhetoric? You sound just like her, only a 8 year old ultra conservative.
And a note to you atheists – I didn't say that atheists are responsible for these horrors, but the few who carry it to its logical conclusions – just like there are good Muslims, there are good and well-meaning atheists out there – they are just duped by an evil, false system of belief that leads to atrocity based on its core teachings. Atheism is as bankrupt as Islam. (Secularism has its merits)
Seeker, I feel that way about Christians. I don't think all Christians are responsible for the Holocaust but the few who carry it to it's logical conclusions like dogmatism and delusion. I think there are good and well meaning Christians out there but they are duped by a false and antiquated belief system that leads to lethal ignorance based on it's core teachings. Christianity is as ignorant as Islam. (Buddhism has it's merits.)
This little girl has nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is my response to Michelle Malkin, and a reasonable approach to immigration.
No, but it does have to do with you watching Bill O'Reilly. I can't believe you listen to that idiot. Even the kid knows better.
And also I believe they went a little bit far in telling her to say that the republican party has caused many deaths in the name of religion.
The Iraq debacle.
It would be just fine with you if it was Christian rhetoric
Actually, it would not be fine with me. While I plan to pass on my values to my kid and teach them reason, I will not teach them such snideness and illogic, nor will I teach them such disrespect for others.
And as far as the Jesus Camp, it is a little disturbing that kids are being brainwashed instead of loved, instructed, and inspired (which is what spiritual camps ought to be about), but teaching kids to pray for the president only seems strange to those who would rather teach their kids to make snide remarks than pray.
Now who is spouting garbage rhetoric? You sound just like her, only a 8 year old ultra conservative.
The difference that you are missing, since all you are doing is hearing ("sounds like") and not thinking or reasoning, is that *I* can think for myself, and have already previously documented the millions killed by communism and socialism, the great examples of atheist governments. I have also documented the logical link between atheism's disdain for religion and resulting totalitarian suppression of religion.
So even though I *sound* like her, I am not an uninformed 8 year old who has bought the emotional unreason of the left.
I don't think all Christians are responsible for the Holocaust but the few who carry it to it's logical conclusions like dogmatism and delusion.
You may feel that way, but I and many others have shown the illogic of your conclusions – the core teachings of Jesus and Christianity do not lead to such things, but in general, and despite those who have abused faith, have led to abolition, the great liberties we enjoy today in the West, and to the success of the empirical sciences, as documented by Stark.
And it's funny that you mention the Holocaust, because I believe I have well argued that it is Darwinism (and megalomania) that served as the core ideology supporting Nazi eugenics, not Christianity.
And the reason I condemn atheism and Islam is because their CORE TEACHINGS, not the abuse of such, lead to oppression. But perhaps that is a stretch with atheism – but atheism's history has only produced woe for humans when scaled up to a national scale.
No, but it does have to do with you watching Bill O'Reilly. I can't believe you listen to that idiot.
And I can not believe that you call him an idiot, esp. since he has more eduction than either of us. What specific thing that he has said makes you conclude that he is an idiot?
Your rejection of him, IMHO, is not based on his logic, which I find usually impeccable. You may take issue with his interviewing style, but given the brief format, I think he brings on a good balance of guests, even if he fails to give his opponents free reign. And this is hardly reason to call him an idiot. Obnoxious at best, but even then, not an idiot. Remember, he is a commentator, not a news anchor. I think you call him an idiot because you disagree with his politics.
It's like me calling Colbert an idiot because I disagree with his politics. However, I do not resort to such emotional knee-jerk judgments because I reason, and recognize his wit and intelligence.
But that to me illustrates the difference between extremists namecallers (like Ann Coulter and in this case, you) and people who can discriminate between loudmouths and reasonable critics like O'Reilly. And I know the difference. How come you don't seem to? ;P
I don't think O'Reilly is an idiot. Rather, he is a blowhard and a hard-right bully. He's also a wily showman who knows how to milk the cow of dumbbell America.
Actually, it would not be fine with me. While I plan to pass on my values to my kid and teach them reason, I will not teach them such snideness and illogic, nor will I teach them such disrespect for others.
Seeker, it sounds to me that you are actually gullible enough to believe that little girl was for real. Can't you think for yourself? That little girl was a paid actress. The evangelical kids praising the cardboard cut out of Bush like a pack of idiots babbling nonsense, that was real and pathetic.
And the reason I condemn atheism and Islam is because their CORE TEACHINGS, not the abuse of such, lead to oppression.
Christianity has far more in common with Islam than Atheism. "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." The core teachings of Islam and Christianity are essentially the same, they both dumb down their followers. Ignorant people who are willing to die for something there is no evidence for are by nature, dangerous. They are fundamentalists and deluded by years of indoctrination. Fundamentalist Christians are no different than Muslim suicide bombers because they are bereft of their reason. AS far as atheism, "There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable."
What specific thing that he (O'Reilly) has said makes you conclude that he is an idiot?
Here is the video proof. I know you hate Olbermann but if you can get over your prejudice you will be forced to concede, "Ya Cineaste, O'Reilly was an idiot on this point."
But that to me illustrates the difference between extremists namecallers (like Ann Coulter and in this case, you)
After watching that, have you had your fill of crow yet? Sadly, Bill O'Reilly was gullible enough to believe that 8 year old was for real as well. Nothing to do with his politics. He's an idiot.
Well, it was a fine deception. I too believed that she had been brainwashed by secularists with such crap, and was spouting such as her own beliefs. So I should be ashamed because I was taken in by a good actress.
The issue here isn’t whether or not Bill or anyone believed that she was for real – the issue is that liberals get a kick out of such sarcastic regurgitation of their illogic. It’s juvenile.
Even more juvenile is to conclude that, if someone errantly believed that this girl had truly been brainwashed by liberal crazies (and I have no doubt that such kids exist, even if their brainwashing is only through osmosis and not through a conscious, structured teaching method), that they are gullible, and therfore idiots, and therefore, we feel no need to address their logical claims directly. Is that your point? That you are good at deception, and think it funny when people fall for your erudite sarcasm, and therefore, you feel no need to deal with reasoned argument, comfortable resting in an ad hominem conclusion that your opponent is an idiot because they fell for your funny deception?
The fact that you use this approach to prove that you are smarter than others and that they are idiots shows that, while you may be intelligent, your motives are not to arrive at reasoned conclusions, but to make sarcastic, demeaning attacks rather than address issues directly. I don’t blame you, since your ability to argue logically fails you when you come up against such people as O’Reilly.
In fact, the preponderance of cynical mockery on the left is no accident – when logic fails, and when sour grapes set in when one loses influence, where else do you go but the loser’s corner? to the “seat of the scornful.” As Psalm 1 says
The ungodly? Atheists and secularists who deny the reality and importance of God. The scornful? Those who have left constructive argument and labor for criticism and scorn. Both the left and the right indulge in this, and I dislike them both.
But rather than waste any more time on why you lack respect for Bill O’Reilly or anyone else that calls liberals on their illogic and culpability in their flawed schemes to help mankind and rid him of faith, I return to the subject at hand.
Michelle is wrong on the subject of immigration. Do you agree with her or me, or are you just here to bring up your own pet subjects regardless of the post? As you can tell, I am frustrated with such BS, but fall into the trap of arguing it anyway. I’ve learned to ignore Sam’s more inflammatory and purposely ridiculous remarks (though he still makes good ones too), looks like I’ll have to add you to my conscious watch list.
Well, I thought the little girls was saying what she was told to say by her parents. (most likely scenario, truthfully.)
And I love Bill O'Reilly even if I disagree with him a lot. He IS intelligent. He is sort of a bully, but I think that is pretty much what he gets paid to do. But he does not back down unless he is given good logical reasons to do so.
I do not have fox news, and so I did not watch the program. I also think that Mexico should just become part of the US. (I have been told this is stupid, but I persist in my opinion. :-p)
I do have to agree with this:
There are two real criminals here. The primary one is the corrupt Mexican government that needs to implement important economic and ethical reforms.
and
It is a humanitarian shame.
Your ability to argue logically fails you when you come up against such people as O'Reilly.
Give an example. My contention that Bill O'Reilly is an idiot is based off his repeated assertion that it was American soldiers who slaughtered German prisoners at Malmedy and not the other way around. O'Reilly spat this ignorant dreck in the face of the the former commander of NATO not once but twice. Even after he was corrected by his own viewers he persisted. FOX even had the transcripts clandestinely and dishonestly altered to cover O'Reilly's ass but it was too late, he had already been TIVO'ed. You asked me directly "What specific thing that he has said makes you conclude that he is an idiot?" and I answered directly.
Michelle is wrong on the subject of immigration. Do you agree with her or me, or are you just here to bring up your own pet subjects regardless of the post? As you can tell, I am frustrated with such bull shit, but fall into the trap of arguing it anyway.
Your point #6 was "What would Bill O'Reilly do?" I was showing that one really shouldn't care what he would do. He is clearly an idiot for the well documented reasons I mentioned above.
I see your point though you would never admit to seeing any of mine. If you want me to honestly respond to Malkin and O'Reilly post the interviews so I can make up my own mind. As the commentary stands now, there is nothing but garbage right wing rhetoric like "Let's focus on the real enemies of America and humanity – far-left liberals, abortion and Islam" If you want intelligent well thought out arguments about this subject then make an intelligent, well thought out post instead of doing your best Ann Coulter impression. My suggestions would be, make your post direct and too the point so that the reader does not have to labor through so much right wing rhetoric. Make your links refer to exactly what was said instead of linking to only far right pundit spin. If you really want to make this something that liberals can comment intelligently upon then give them something to address and stop trying to cram your own conservative opinions down everyone's throat and expect them to swallow it. The way you structure your posts, as if your trying to be as polemical as possible, really leaves them open to scorn. It's as if you want them to be mocked, so you can get a rise out of people. Then when this inevitably happens, you act offended.
I've learned to ignore Sam's more inflammatory and purposely ridiculous remarks.
I have to concede that this is what I am doing with many of your posts like Charles Darwin causing the Holocaust, Stalin's purges, and Mao's "cultural revolution." It's simply too ridiculous to take seriously and does not warrant much of a reply because "There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable." If you present a better argument then people will respond better to it.
When logic fails, and when sour grapes set in when one loses influence, where else do you go but the loser's corner?
After this you start quoting scripture. This is what Christians tend to do when logic fails. They resort to their holy book. Don't you understand that doing this is illogical. Here is why. If you where arguing with a Muslim and he started quoting passages from his holy book, the Quran, like…
"…who fought and were slain…I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward."
It wouldn't mean much to you would it? It's not a logical argument. So, when you start doing the same thing to me with…
"Blessed is the man who walks not in counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful"
It's the same deal. You as a Christian quoting the Bible to me has the same effect as a Muslim quoting the Quran to you. Nothing, and for the same reason. Neither argument has any logical basis. Ironically, you would accuse me of abandoning logic when it's actually you who do so by defaulting to religion. Logic is universal to all mankind. Particular religions like Christianity and Islam are clearly not. Shrug.
I really have to admit to not realizing that the little girl was a paid actor. I guess I am pretty stupid. (Or possibly just was not informed.)
But I still think it was a shameful political exploitation of a child.
As to this: And also I believe they went a little bit far in telling her to say that the republican party has caused many deaths in the name of religion.
The Iraq debacle.
I think that the Iraq debacle has more to do with oil than religion, don't you? I believe the Vietnam debacle was a Democratic Party endeavor. Not to point fingers or anything.
I still don't think Bill O'Reilly is an idiot. Just a very stubborn smart guy, who knows he is smart. Who doesnt care what people say about him. And did I mention he is stubborn. I would not want to be married to him, but I think he is far more honest than many other newspeople!
I think that the Iraq debacle has more to do with oil than religion, don't you?
Sunni and Shi'te Muslims are killing each for religious reasons. Oil is one of the reasons we invaded Iraq but the sectarian violence in Iraq is clearly motivated by religious differences. When we removed Sadaam we liberated the Shiite Muslims from the Sunni Muslims who were the minority in control. Now, there is a Sunni insurgency and we are stuck in the middle of what many consider to be a religious civil war. To make matters worse, Iran is a predominantly Shi'ite nation and Saudi Arabia is predominantly Sunni (I believe) and if things get much worse, these countries may step into the confrontation and spark a regional war. That would be a disaster beyond all expectations in terms of human lives. In oil terms, which is all Oil men like Bush and Cheney care about, it would be a huge disaster for them as well. You think oil is priced high now; with the entire Middle East embroiled in a religious war between Sunni and Shea, you haven't seen anything yet. We will see what transpires but those are the stakes as I see them. At the very least, everyone there hates the United States much more now because we meddled in Iraq when we really should not have. I have a different opinion regarding Afghanistan (The Taliban actually were Al Qaeda terrorists) but that is another matter.
The Christian equivalent to this would be the Irish Republican Army and the violence between Catholics and Protestants. Another example is the ethnic cleansing of Bosnian Muslims by the Serbians. All are religiously motivated at the core.
seeker said;
`Sure, they disobeyed civil laws, but they were obeying a higher law.`
Hey my friend seeker….God bless you real good!
God doesn't contradict himself.
He told us to obey the law.
He is the One who made the laws and we are to obey them who have the rule over us.
This is Bible.
I like your pages, but you're telling what is not God's word.
If I run a red light because I am hurrying to get to the hospital, I still broke the law.
Immigrants are wrong by not having respect for US laws.
God is NOT on their side. He is on his own side and they need to get on his side.
Do you think they're getting arrested is wrong?
No. They are being arrested for breaking laws that God himself gave man to follow.
God can provide for them and he doesn't need them violating US law to do it.
God doesn't work that way.
`The blessing of the Lord makes rich and he adds no sorrow to it.`(Proverbs 10.22)
They have sorrow and it comes from not obeying God.
Great work on your pages.
I hope to read all you got here.
In the video the “coolest 8 year old” said that the republican party was responsible for many deaths in the name of religion. I contested it, you referred to the Iraq debacle.
I still do not see how the Republican Party has caused deaths in the name of religion.
The republican parties’ interest in the Iraq war was oil. Nothing to do with religion. How many Republican politicians are muslim?
:)
You got me there Lawanda :)
“I love it when a plan comes together” puff puff
(hehe, sorry, I just love saying that.) (Hannibal from the ATeam :-D)
“What would Bill O’Reilly do?” I was showing that one really shouldn’t care what he would do
OK, now I get your point, but since she was hosting HIS show, I think she should be asking that even if he is an idiot ;)
garbage right wing rhetoric like “Let’s focus on the real enemies of America and humanity – far-left liberals, abortion and Islam”
Two things. First of all, I don’t consider that rhetoric, I really believe that these ideologies are the enemies of civilization and humanity.
Second, I appealing to her as a conservative, not trying to change anyone’s mind, but to remind her of what I believe she already believes, like many conservatives – that immigration is not really our biggest problem (unless you consider Muslim immigration) – us conservatives do agree that the murder of children via abortion and liberalism are two of the biggest risks we face in the future. So not rhetoric, I am merely repeating what I think conservatives would say to one another about our priorities.
My suggestions would be, make your post direct and too the point so that the reader does not have to labor through so much right wing rhetoric.
I’ll take that advice, but again, in a sense, I was talking to the choir first, and the other sinners second ;)
I have to concede that this is what I am doing with many of your posts like Charles Darwin causing the Holocaust, Stalin’s purges, and Mao’s “cultural revolution.”
I am sorry you don’t find my arguments compelling. However, since I do find them compelling, I will probably grind those axes for a while. I’ll try to keep our more skeptical readers in mind, though. That just means even more homework for me. Damn.
After this you start quoting scripture. This is what Christians tend to do when logic fails.
I agree, but that is not the only reason that people cite scripture. In cases where people are opting out of reasoned debate, and instead, fall back on an appeal to authority, I agree, that is a poor tactic.
In this case however, I was not doing so, but rather, was using scripture as an illustration. And again, I was appealing to Michelle, who I am assuming respects, if not believes the scriptures.
It’s the same deal. You as a Christian quoting the Bible to me has the same effect as a Muslim quoting the Quran to you. Nothing, and for the same reason.
Three things. First, I was not making an argument, but an illustration, and that, to someone I assumed already had knowledge of the scriptures, even such simple ones as this. If you were looking for some logic like “if this, then that,” of course you didn’t find it, because I was merely warning her away from “sitting in the seat of the scornful” because scripture says to avoid it. I was not explaining WHY that’s a bad thing. In a sense, I was appealing to authority, but not because I didn’t have an argument, but because I felt it went without saying, esp. when addressing Michelle, and not unbelievers.
Second, the passage you quoted from the Koran is not a valid comparison for two reasons. First of all, it is not a complete thought, while my passage was. Second, I didn’t start in the middle of a phrase like you did. Third, your passage is much more esoteric, and has a historical context which is needed for interpretation, while the passage I quoted does NOT need historical context for interpretation.
Third, I am very surprised that the meaning of the simple passage I quoted is beyond your comprehension. It seems clear to me that it is is a warning to NOT do certain things, and those things, esp. the first one, is very straight forward, and I explained the last one. And again, I am not arguing a point, but illustrating a point that I assume Michelle already agrees with, but needs a reminder of.
In the future, when writing to Christians, I will attempt to make things clear for those who are not believers, in order to avoid confusion and spread understanding.
Logic is universal to all mankind. Particular religions like Christianity and Islam are clearly not.
Logic is, but logic alone can not rescue mankind, no matter what Carl Sagan or Karl Marx say. And the need for God is universal also, so you have to have a better answer than “I don’t know” or “there is no God.”
I agree that the complexity of Christianity makes it doubtful that any reasonable God would expect people to buy into such complexity, but also, the gospel itself is pretty simple when boiled down to essentials such as The Four Spiritual Laws.
And the need for God is universal also, so you have to have a better answer than “I don’t know” or “there is no God.”
I agree with that.
I have noticed that people who read WILL quote their books. Usually it isnt so offensive, unless it is their Bible.
“Logic is, but logic alone can not rescue mankind, no matter what Carl Sagan or Karl Marx say.”
Oh, nice one Seeker! This will certainly put sinners in their place. Even though Godless atheists might say, “Rescue mankind from what?” you just plug away as if their objections don’t even matter. Even though they don’t believe in sin, that’s beside the point. We need pure belief in Jesus to save us, not logic. Thats why Jesus died for our sins. Faith in Jesus is our salvation not rationality, logic, or clear thinking.
“I still do not see how the Republican Party has caused deaths in the name of religion / The republican parties’ interest in the Iraq war was oil.”
I totally agree! Oil is a much better cause to die for then religion. Republicans like myself are glad that we are willing to die and kill for the right things. It’s called values. A word it seems, liberals have not learned the meaning of. So what if three thousand Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis die for our need for oil. If oil makes America powerful then what are a few thousand lives here and there?
Oh, nice one Seeker! This will certainly put sinners in their place. Even though Godless atheists might say, “Rescue mankind from what?”
First of all, thank you, I thought that was a nice little barb. But you are wrong about atheists having no idea or goals for saving mankind. In fact, Sagan’s book The Demon Haunted World makes clear that atheists such as himself want to save the world from superstition (a.k.a. religion) in order to pursue the bliss, health, and enlightenment that only reason can provide. Similarly, Marx had noble goals to end the injustices of this world, and to end the superstitious and manipulative abuse of religion.
But as I said, I believe that, contrary to the claims of Carl and Karl, logic, science, and reason alone can not and will never deliver mankind from the root cause of much of man’s suffering. I am all for medicine and scientific environmentalism and such, but to fix the heart of mankind, you’re gonna need more than education. You’re going to need faith, the love of God, and the other essential things that faith provides that reason can not.
We need pure belief in Jesus to save us, not logic.
That is not even close to what I said or am saying. What I am saying is that, while logic and reason are a necessary component of bringing humanity out of sickness, suffering, and fear, it is not enough in and of itself. Atheism’s insistence that reason alone provides what man needs to progress out of fear, hate, and suffering, and that religion provides nothing essential to such a process is dead wrong.
In fact, when such things are tried, you end up with cruelty. It is inevitable when you deny God, and history supports my contention.
More on Bill O’Reilly…
I just saw this video for the first time and I was amazed by the calm cool collected rational right wing conservatives Bill and Geraldo exude…
Bill O’Reilly Loses His Mind
ROFL!!
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