Many evangelicals and fundamentalists are tea-totalers, and a good number of them also look down upon Christians who do use alcohol. And while such judgmental Christians are disobeying the command of Romans 14:3 to “not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him,” this does not mean that they are wrong to abstain. But the question arises, is the biblical perspective on alcohol entirely or mostly negative, or the opposite? NOTE: You can hear my sermon on this subject at The Biblical Perspective on Drinking and Alcohol.
1. Wine as a blessing
The biblical position on alcohol is, on one side, actually very positive – the passage below indicates that one of God’s main purposes in giving wine was to “make our hearts glad.”
Psalm 104:14-15 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the service of man, That he may bring forth food from the earth, And wine that makes glad the heart of man, Oil to make his face shine, And bread which strengthens man’s heart.
In fact, the Psalmist also remarks on this gladdening affect when trying to explain how God fills our hearts with gladness:
Psalm 4:7 You have filled my heart with greater joy than when their grain and new wine abound.
In fact, having lots of wine around is a sign of prosperity and blessing.
Genesis 27:28 Therefore may God give you Of the dew of heaven, Of the fatness of the earth, And plenty of grain and wine. Proverbs 3:9-10 Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops; then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine.
Proverbs 9 personifies wisdom as a woman who offers a wonderful meal with wine.
Proverbs 9:4-6 Let all who are simple come in here!” she says to those who lack judgment. “Come, eat my food and drink the wine I have mixed. Leave your simple ways and you will live; walk in the way of understanding.”
2. Wine can soften the pain of sorrow
Though we often think of “drowning our sorrows in booze” as something that leads to alcoholism, scriptures indicate that in times of sorrow, wine may be helpful to ease our pains. But I may be misunderstanding this scripture in context:
Proverbs 31:6-7 Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.
3. Wine has medicinal purposes
Luke 10:34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; Timothy 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.
4. The Bible warns about the dangers and abuse of wine
Many sins are merely the abuse of something good that God has given for our pleasure – food, sex, and wine are all pleasurable and potent, but abuse invites disaster, and the Bible also reflects this reality.
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise. Proverbs 21:7 He who loves pleasure will become poor; whoever loves wine and oil will never be rich. Proverbs 23:19-21 Listen, my son, and be wise, and keep your heart on the right path. Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags. Proverbs 23:29-35 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? Those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine. Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly! In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart utter perverse things. You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea, like one who lies on the top of a mast. ‘They struck me,’ you will say,’but I was not hurt; they beat me, but I did not feel it. When shall I awake? I must have another drink.’
Those of us who have had a hangover understand this well.
5. Those in leadership should probably abstain
Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
Interestingly, the Levitical priests were not allowed to drink wine at all as part of their vows (Leviticus 10:9).
6. Those who focus on drinking and feasting often forget or leave God’s way
Isaiah 5:11-12 Woe to those who rise early in the morning, That they may follow intoxicating drink; Who continue until night, till wine inflames them! The harp and the strings, The tambourine and flute, And wine are in their feasts; But they do not regard the work of the LORD, Nor consider the operation of His hands. Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, And through intoxicating drink are out of the way; The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink, They are swallowed up by wine, They are out of the way through intoxicating drink; They err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
7. Fundies often accuse those who don’t abstain of abusing alcohol
Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.
8. Jesus’ first miracle was to create wine from water (John 2)
This alone ought to convince tea-totalers that Jesus was not against having a drink. But there is more to this story than the metaphor of wine as spirit, or the idea that the Kingdom of God will be like a wedding feast. Jesus’ turning water into wine also speaks to his view of sinners, of celebration, and of the dangers of wine. He seemed to be unconcerned about making enough for people to become drunk. He didn’t seem to have a Pharisaical fear of drunkeness, nor was he a drink counter. Some well-meaning Christians teach that the alcohol of Jesus’ time was either non-alcoholic or of low alcohol content, but there are at least four reasons why this is non-sensical. First, if wine in the Bible is non-alcoholic, that renders all of the other Old and New Testament warnings against drunkeness non-sensical. Second, if the wine is only slightly alcoholic, people will drink enough to get the ‘gladdening’ effect no matter how little is in it. Third, they had 30 pots of water to drink, so the complaints of being out of wine did not mean that they were out of refreshment, but the kind that keeps the party going – i.e. alcohol. Fourth, the fact that people remarked that it was a surprise to have the best wine last is important, but why? Because when people drink, they slowly get intoxicated, and care less about the actual taste of the wine. So you start out with the best wine, and later they don’t really recognize that the wine is inferior. To serve it in the opposite order is notable, and the Bible catches that very reality. Otherwise, this point about the good wine last is meaningless, or has to be strangely made into some sort of spiritual metaphor. Not convinced because I have not delved into the original languages or history? Read these scholars:
- The Bible and Alcohol by Daniel B. Wallace – “One question we must wrestle with is this: If there is a subcultural Christian prohibition that goes beyond scripture, are we obligated to follow it? Should we even endorse it? Ignore it? Fight against it? As we all know, there are numerous Christian taboos that go beyond scripture, depending on when and where one lives. Perhaps this one can be seen as paradigmatic for how to treat the others.”
- Wine in the Ancient World at Church History 101 – “It is an unfortunate fact that incorrect information regarding wine in the ancient world continues to be repeated. The data which is incorrectly presented, and which I want to address here, comes from non-Christian ancient writers including Pliny the Elder and Columella.”
- Did Jesus turn water into wine or grape juice? at Parchment and Pen Blog – Acts 2:13: “But others, mocking, said, ‘They are filled with new wine’.†How could the Apostles be accused of being intoxicated from a drink that is not fermented? There is no indication, either in the culture of the day or in the Bible, that there was such a thing as unfermented wine. Wine is wine because it is fermented.
9. We should consider how our drinking affects others
The main passage that tea-totalers refer to when justifying their stance is Romans 14, which talks about not causing others to stumble in their faith because of your own freedom of conscience.
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
So while Paul certainly allows us to drink, he recommends that we curtail our freedom in order to help others. In addition, Paul warns that we should not condemn those who do feel free to drink. You can see my “complete” discussion on Romans 14 in Navigating Moral Gray Areas.
10. We should not waste our time in drunkenness
We should avoid drunkenness, which is wasteful, and instead, be filled with the Spirit of God
Ephesians 5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit
Now, those of us familiar with the manifest presence of God in our services understand that such a filling does bring on a drunkenness – in fact, when the Disciples first received the Spirit, people thought that they were drunk:
Acts 2:14-17 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.’
CONCLUSION
Christians certainly have the liberty to drink and enjoy all that God has given us to enjoy, with liberty but with caution – abuse of those things leads to ruin. And those who are cautious for the sake of others in not drinking, are doing something admirable, as long as they realize that those who do not share their conviction on the matter are not lesser in a spiritual maturity sense. We must be careful not to condemn what Christ has not condemned, lest we be like the Pharisees adding out own rules as heavy burdens. However, if we feel free to drink, we should not flaunt our freedom, lest we also be sinning against God:
Romans 14:22 Do you have faith [enough to feel free to drink]? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
As a teetotaler for several reasons, can I simply say “agreed”?
Only if I've done a good job. I tried to be fair, but my bias is showing ;).
But i would like to hear your several reasons. The important ones would be:
– as a safety from abuse, esp. if it runs in the family
– out of consideration for others
– don't like the taste,
– don't care to take the risk
10 Biblical Points about Alcohol and Drinking
Many evangelicals and fundamentalists are tea-totalers, and a good number of them also look down upon Christians who do use alcohol. And while such judgmental Christians are disobeying the command of Romans 14:3 to "not condemn the man who does, for G…
Say that there's a group of young people in a church in which some drink, some don't, some are underage and drink while some are underage and their parents are teetotalers. A teetotaler parent complains to the church about those who drink because they wind up drinking in front of their kids who do not. I suppose it is the responsibility of the drinkers to make sure that they don't drink in front of those who are underage?
The parents have different attitudes about it so some who are underage are drinking.
I never considered how drinking in front of the kids might affect them, but you know what? I drive in front of my kids too, and they know that they are going to have to wait to drive.
Kids should NOT be drinking underage, although in my home, my grandfather made wine, and we were always free to taste it. I think that overly strict households that prohibit drinking cause more problems with abuse than those that teach responsible use. Same with guns ;).
I think it has been historically proven that the alcohol content of the "wine" or beer in older days was much less than it is in our modern times.
You may want to consider that, too, since the Bible was written several years ago :)
I am personally what you have termed a "tea-totaler" for many reasons. The main one being that having seen way too many people "try it" and then become alcoholics, I don't think there is much good in the stuff at all.
But then, that is not to say I have never drank…..But I do generally avoid it and advise others to do the same. :)
I think it has been historically proven that the alcohol content of the "wine" or beer in older days was much less than it is in our modern times.
Citation?
Why is it important that the alcohol content was lower? Are you arguing that the only reason the bible OK'd drinking wine in the past was that it was less intoxicating?
The fact is, the affects of wine are clearly described in the scriptures above, and both God and the bible writers were well aware of them.
And secondarily, I think it is highly unlikely that wine was less alcoholic in the past because the amount of alcohol produced is not based on modern tools or methods, but on the biology of fermentation, and the amount of sugar in the substrate (grapes). Winemaking is so simple, and has not really changed over time.
I got that idea from several sources, but this one works for now. The ancient Greeks did not drink older wine (the older the wine, the longer it fermented, the more alcohol content it contained…) and they also did not drink wine unless they mixed it with water….
“Ancient Greek wines were thick, dark, and syrupy, and were cut with water (at times even seawater) to be drunk. In fact, drinking undiluted wine was scandalous. The grapes were harvested in the early Fall, placed seeds, stems and all into tubs, stomped on with bare feet to squeeze out the juice, and the unfiltered juice allowed to ferment in open vats. Because these wines were stored in goatskins or clay amphorae stoppered only by greasy rags, there was exposure to air the entire time and spoilage was a problem. Thus, Greek wines needed to be drunk young…”
Alcohol content in wine can be higher than you think.
The bible mostly refers to “new wine” which by definition is way lower alcoholic content than the wine you would drink today.
I just think you need to consider that when you think about wine in the bible. Not that they didn’t drink it at all, but they didn’t drink wine like our wine.
So it's OK to drink weak or watered down wine, biblically speaking?
I really don't think that a weaker wine is going to change our theology at all.
Did you read the articles? Cuz one of them stated (maybe that was one I didn't cite, though….I will have to look it up again) that you would be put in jail for having one and a half glasses of most wine today, if you were to get behind the wheel, and have to have a breathalyser test.
There is quite a difference between that and the basically slightly fermented grape juice which most people (including, I am sure, Jesus) drank in ancient times.
And as to the "theology" of wine drinking, it all comes to attitude, just like everything else, really. People who think they should be able to drink wine are going to drink wine. If their example leads someone else to become a wino, then I guess that'll have to be on their conscience. Which won't matter much to them if they turn out to be a wino themselves, anyhow.
As part of my Southern Baptist heritage, I do have some hesitation toward drinking at all and have heard all the reasons to explain biblical drinking: less alcohol content, less options because of water contamination and other factors, etc.
My main reason (beside it being a conviction that God has placed on my life) would be the possible impact on others – which is going to vary depending on the culture and area. In the South, drinking still carries a negative connotation, especially for non-Christians who see Christians doing it. Right or wrong, the non-Christian takes that as a bit of hypocrisy. There is also the case of working with youth, who cannot drink legally and should not drink. I also do not want it in my home where my children would have access to it and be exposed to it before they need to be.
Other reasons would be: have never really felt the desire to, I enjoy soft drinks and other drinks and see no need to add a drink that may pose some type of risk, even if it is small; the removal of any possibility of my becoming drunk and falling in that hole (my grandfather had an alcohol problem during his life); there are others but those are the main ones that I have thought the most about.
There is quite a difference between that and the basically slightly fermented grape juice which most people (including, I am sure, Jesus) drank in ancient times.
I think this flies in the face of the description of wine in Proverbs I listed above – what makes wine WINE is that it is intoxicating.
** Too much ** wine leads to drunkenness, whether it's 1% or 12% alcohol. So again, even if the wildly speculative and probably incorrect tea-totaler version of wine's lower alcohol content in the past (I'm sorry, it seems less like scholarship amd more like wishful thinking, if not self-deception), it just doesn't matter.
What you are essentially trying to say with such arguments is that when the bible and Jesus "approved" of wine, they weren't talking about our wine, but some watered down "harmless" version.
But that's just too incredible to be believable, and it's also illogical.
When the bible says that God gave man wine to make his heart glad, it is talking about the intoxicating affect of wine, not the sweet taste of grape juice.
To put it crassly, God gave man the ability to catch a buzz as a blessing – but move past that to drunkenness, and you are abusing it. It's ok to enjoy the relaxing affects of alcohol, as long as we are aware that it affects our judgment if we have too much.
People who think they should be able to drink wine are going to drink wine. If their example leads someone else to become a wino, then I guess that'll have to be on their conscience. Which won't matter much to them if they turn out to be a wino themselves, anyhow.
I don't buy this fear-based logic. Here's why. Subsitute in the other pleasures God desinged for us, and your argument falls apart.
SEX
People who think they should be able to HAVE SEX are going to HAVE SEX. If their example leads someone else to become a PORN ADDICT OR PROSTITUTE, then I guess that'll have to be on their conscience.
FATTENING FOOD
People who think they should be able to EAT RICH FOODS are going to EAT RICH FOODS. If their example leads someone else to become OBESE, then I guess that'll have to be on their conscience.
We need to be teaching self control and moderation, not abstaining. The reason prohibition was such a terrible failure was that it is the wrong approach to such valid pleasures.
I don't buy this fear-based logic.
I wouldn't say it is fear-based logic. Although, I do fear for people following the example of others and becoming addicts themselves. It obviously happens that way ALL THE TIME!
Subsitute in the other pleasures God desinged for us, and your argument falls apart.
Sex can be abused, and your statement is absolutely true of the abuses of sex. Naturally not of moral sex…
I totally agree with the fattening food substitute. It is the same thing as drinking (and even smoking). People eat fat foods, and abuse their diet when they are not happy, or are just gluttonous.
God gave us pot and tobacco too, didn't he? I view them the same way…except that tobacco can NEVER be a good thing, imo… unless it does have some medical uses that I don't know about.
WHY you are drinking wine is the real problem. Would you take very weak wine? Or are you wanting that 17% wine??
Here is where we disagree:
Psalm 104:14-15
He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the service of man,
That he may bring forth food from the earth,
And wine that makes glad the heart of man,
Oil to make his face shine,
And bread which strengthens man's heart.
To me, that verse doesn't imply that God wants us to get high or intoxicated. There are plenty of other verses in Proverbs that say otherwise (you quoted a few)…
I do agree that a little wine can be good for person. And I do agree that verse shows that is why God put it on Earth, to help us feel better sometimes. (Just like any other medicine, really)
But honestly wine as a habit is obviously wrong. As I said half of proverbs warns against using wine or any other strong drink in that way.
If you lose a loved one and you drink some wine one time so you can sleep, that is one thing, but drinking it every night or even once a week for the same effect is another.
Drinking a little wine every now and then, and being a wine drinker are totally different.
The problem with wine is that it is addictive. So a person may take a little wine once, remember that it made them stop feeling the bad, and try for that effect again. That is how we end up with alcoholics.
I would suggest doing good for others to stop feeling bad. Or if you are drinking just to "relax" do something else that doesn't have ANY harmful tendencies… like taking a walk with your kids. :)
You said: "Those in leadership should probably abstain"
Last time I checked dads and moms were leaders……
:)
I do think you are trying to justify it so you can do it, but I can't read your mind, so I could be wrong. But usually when someone argues that wine is "harmless" in small quantities, they are not meaning once a year, or once every so often for a therapeutic/medicinal thing, but as something they can do when they are out in social situations, or at home "to relax" even if they did not just go through some kind of trauma… ;)
Naturally not of moral sex…
Then I would say, “naturally, not moral drinking…”
Do you believe in such a thing as a moral use of alcohol? How about for more than medicine? How about to “make glad the heart of man?”
WHY you are drinking wine is the real problem. Would you take very weak wine? Or are you wanting that 17% wine??
Because I like the feeling it gives, how’s that? That’s the point of “making the heart glad.” It’s the relaxing factor. I’m not trying to get drunk or avoid pain. And quite honestly, 17% alcohol makes for an unpleasant taste – something around 3 or 4 % is optimal for taste, I might say.
If it’s just a matter of why, then again, the percentage of alcohol makes absolutely no difference. The person intent on getting drunk will have no problem doing it with low alcohol wine. And the person intent on relaxing and enjoying a cup of vino will be able to use today’s “strong” wine without a problem.
To me, that verse doesn’t imply that God wants us to get high or intoxicated.
So what does it mean that wine “makes the heart glad”? It seems to me that the obvious reference is how wine makes us feel – it’s a direct reference to the intoxicating power of wine, which is it’s most salient feature. You tell me what your interpretation of that passage is (or find out what the grape juice heretics say). Seriously, I am of the opinion that the grape juice theologians are really poor scholars, and are, in general, well meaning theological hacks backing up their pet doctrine with poor, self-serving scholarship.
But honestly wine as a habit is obviously wrong. As I said half of proverbs warns against using wine or any other strong drink in that way.
I think now you are introducing a new ambiguous word to confuse the subject – just what is a “habit”? Regularity? How regular is a habit? If I drink wine once a month with dinner, am I sinning? What if i drink a little each night to aid in my digestion and repose before sleep?
You see, I think that the tea-totaler’s real goal is to define almost ALL wine use as sinful so that they can justify their position, but it’s just not biblical.
The bible does not condemn “habitual” use, but ABUSE, which is merely and ONLY drinking TOO MUCH wine. Habitual use is not abuse, unless perhaps there is an emotional and physical dependence.
That’s the only sinful use of wine I see, outside of being considerate of those who feel that drinking is bad, or bad for them.
Q: CAN I OFFEND PHARISEES?
But a problem comes. You are no longer a new believer. I have to decide, does my glass of wine with dinner offend you because you are still a new or immature believer who feels that wine might drag them down into their old life or a life of sin, or RATHER, which can often be the case with long time tea-totalers, are you a MATURE believer who has become Pharisaical about drink, and self-righteous in your abstinence, and trying to force everyone else to bow to one of your (many) rules of personal bondage? You know, the type Paul refers to when he says:
The problem with wine is that it is addictive. So a person may take a little wine once, remember that it made them stop feeling the bad, and try for that effect again. That is how we end up with alcoholics.
Same goes for sex and food. Why don’t you abstain from those?
I would suggest doing good for others to stop feeling bad.
The funny thing is, I only drink maybe once very other month, and not much at that. But I do want to preserve my freedom from kill-joy theologians who want to make Christians feel bad about blessings that God gave us to enjoy – I mean, there are theologians out there (though less) who preach that sex with your spouse for any reason other than procreation is a sin. To me, that’s the same theological camp, just about.
And more people die from heart attacks from obesity than drunkenness, I betcha. Perhaps you should be more forceful about gluttony and abstaining from rich foods. I’m on a diet to be healthy, but when my Christian friends order fries, I give in to temptation and do the same. And now I am fat. It’s their fault, and they are not walking in love. Perhaps i should start condemning them for ordering fries in front of me.
You said: “Those in leadership should probably abstain” Last time I checked dads and moms were leaders……
As I said, the goal of tea totalers is to expand the conditions under which people should not drink in order to eliminate almost all uses of alcohol.
But the passage I quoted was for public leaders of large groups. Nowhere in the OT does it talk of parents abstaining because they are “leaders.” That’s way too loose a definition to be useful or accurate for this argument.
It shows me that you are still grasping at exceptions, overly broad or narrow definitions, and poor historians and logic in order to justify an extreme stance as normative. I just don’t buy it from a biblical point of view, even though such positions are popular among certain denominations.
I do think you are trying to justify it so you can do it, but I can’t read your mind, so I could be wrong.
For me, it is a principled position against legalism and Phariseeism, both of which I have been a victim (and disciple) of. I see it as dangerous and bad theology creeping in to (1) bring us into bondage, and (2) substitute false piety for the real.
I guess that’s why I get a little angry about it. I still have a sore spot where legalists made a fool of me with their insidious theology, which looks righteous, but is really bondage.
at home “to relax” even if they did not just go through some kind of trauma… ;)
In my book, that’s exactly what God gave it to us for, and exactly what scripture means by “making the heart glad.”
Do you believe in such a thing as a moral use of alcohol?
I do. But not to get your mind off your problems. That is what prayer is for.
How about for more than medicine? How about to "make glad the heart of man?"
Not really. Many things make me glad. Alcohol has never been one of them. It is far too easy to abuse.
The problem with wine is that it is addictive. So a person may take a little wine once, remember that it made them stop feeling the bad, and try for that effect again. That is how we end up with alcoholics.
Same goes for sex and food. Why don't you abstain from those?
Sex and food are necessary. I know people who have lived their entire lives without so much as thinking of drinking wine, or missing it. And they had their "glad heart" moments same as any wine drinker out there.
And sex is a basic instinctual practice. Even people who do not have sex think about it. And as for food, we know that no one can live without food….
For me, it is a principled position against legalism and Phariseeism
It shouldn't be. As much as the bible has to say on the foolishness of getting drunk, it would seem obvious to me that the first step in getting drunk is buying the wine. You may not finish out the getting drunk process once a month when you take a drink with your meal, but you are way more susceptible to getting drunk than someone who would never buy the stuff to begin with.
"Abstain from all appearance of evil."
It may not appear evil to you when you see someone carting home a few bottles of wine, but it probably does to the recovering alcoholic….
As much as the bible has to say on the foolishness of getting drunk, it would seem obvious to me that the first step in getting drunk is buying the wine.
But you see, this is EXACTLY how Phariseeism works. Rather than emphasize the inner qualities of self control, they set up "hedge" rules to keep us from sinning. Pretty soon, you have an entire book of safety rules which you then push on other people to "keep them safe and holy."
The deception here is that, rather than demanding maturity and the development of discernment and wisdom to know WHEN to avoid certain things, you have infantilized everyone by forcing them to obey your safety rules – that is, you have taken their freedom by imposing your "noble" rule.
But while your goal is noble, your method is not – in fact, it is evil, because it is not God's way at all. While individuals may need to avoid drinking, or a host of other "risky" endeavors in life that God has given us to enjoy, by making such rules as the rule of thumb or maturity for Christians is actually to replace their freedom with the law!
And what is so wicked about it is that it gives you a false sense of security and holiness, when Paul and Jesus both clearly state that such rules do NOTHING to enhance our spiritual life, except perhaps to puff us up for no reason! Even more, Paul says that those who live with these "can't touch, can't taste" rules are actually those who are WEAK IN FAITH.
So when you promote such unbiblical views as God's, you are not only promoting Pharisaical bondage, you are also perpetuating spiritual infancy in people by failing to demand that they mature and learn how to apply such things by principle rather than by rote.
Note that I am not denying that we should be careful about the appearance we present, and that we should be careful around those who are weak in faith or have issues with drink.
However, to make a hard and fast rule to not drink as the rule for more than yourself is Pharisaical, because it denies the other half of the picture (as all heresy does – it takes one side of a truth and denies the other). That other side is that God has given us wine to enjoy, and as a blessing.
And when you deny that truth, you also give a bad testimony – you cause people to stumble over your restrictive rule because you elevate it to something required which God has not required, and you take away a blessing which God has given.
Again, I think that Paul is very clear in Romans 14 that if you feel you can not drink, that's fine for you, but that does not make you more spiritual or mature than the one who feels that they can – in fact, that restriction shows that you are LESS mature in your faith, because you feel that you would abuse God's blessing if you tried it.
And for you, perhaps that is wisdom. And perhaps I should obey that wisdom. In fact, I was a tea-totaler for the first decade of my xian walk. But to make it a Christian rule is to start down the path towards the death and self-deceptive hypocrisy of Phariseeism.
As well, Romans 14 would counsel me to exercise my freedom to myself, and carefully. But the reason I talk openly about it is because I really feel that such "small" errors as the one you are making are serious threats to Christian freedom, health, witness to the world (who recognize such rules as false piety), and maturity.
Again, I don't disagree with being wise and considerate regarding wine. But a flat prohibition is absolutely the wrong, and unbiblical solution.
But you see, this is EXACTLY how Phariseeism works. Rather than emphasize the inner qualities of self control, they set up "hedge" rules to keep us from sinning.
How have I done that? I think you do need self control. And I definitely think self-control flies further out the window each time you take a drink of alcohol, too.
Again, I don't disagree with being wise and considerate regarding wine. But a flat prohibition is absolutely the wrong, and unbiblical solution.
I agree with that. But I just think it is not a wise thing to flirt with alcoholism, by "taking wine with your meal on occasion" is all. It's also not wise to flaunt this in front of a recovering alcoholics face, either… and who knows who is watching you at a restaurant taking a drink with your meal.
Paul says in Romans 14 -"It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles."
Many people in our society are stumbling spiritually over this problem (alcoholism)… I just think it is wrong to pridefully say "I will drink it because I do not abuse it." in a society like ours….
But to make it a Christian rule is to start down the path towards the death and self-deceptive hypocrisy of Phariseeism.
The christian rule would be made already by this staetement in 1 Peter:
" 1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
3For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
4In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
5but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. "
I already said – I agree there is a moral use of wine – but it is very easy to go from moral to excessive with wine. And it doesn't involve another person (like sex) so it is way easier…
Rather than emphasize the inner qualities of self control, they set up "hedge" rules to keep us from sinning.
How have I done that?
Rather than emphasizing the biblical view, which is that alcohol, like sex and food, is to be enjoyed with moderation, you have fixed a more strict rule which is "Christians should never drink alcohol."
So rather than expecting self control and moderation (i.e. maturity), you have merely erected a rule that says "don't even go close – the blessing is not worth the risk."
Now, there is a biblical principle of fleeing dangerous situations (like "youthful lusts"), but this does not apply, for instance, within marriage. If I am feeling amorous towards my wife, I am within the marriage covenant that allows me to act on that safely and righteously.
If I am of legal age, and desire a relaxing drink, God's provision is there as long as I stay within his guidelines.
But I just think it is not a wise thing to flirt with alcoholism, by "taking wine with your meal on occasion" is all.
Well, that's a very nice subjective way to describe "flirting with alcoholism." Having wine with a meal, or every meal, is flirting w/ alcoholism? Nice opinion, but please apply it to yourself, and don't export such things as rules for the rest of us.
As I said, if you are recommending abstinence as the best Christian approach, I'd say you are choosing a position that contradicts the bible.
It's also not wise to flaunt this in front of a recovering alcoholics face, either… and who knows who is watching you at a restaurant taking a drink with your meal.
And you can't live your life in fear of whomever is watching. You can live that way, but I will never tell people to live that way, because usually, the only people who are actually offended are religious Christians who need some liberty.
Many people in our society are stumbling spiritually over this problem (alcoholism)… I just think it is wrong to pridefully say "I will drink it because I do not abuse it." in a society like ours….
That's a very nice sentiment for you to hold, but I think then that you are also bound to
(1) NEVER display public affection with your spouse because there are porn addicts out there
(2) NEVER order fatty or unhealthy food because we have an epidemic of obese people who need help keeping a diet
(3) NEVER work overtime or too diligently because there are so many people who are workaholics and use work to avoid their families
(4) NEVER purchase any luxury items in public, since there are many people who are shopaholics, and who overindulge in such spending when they should be paying their bills.
You see, you mean well, but what I am saying is that we need to model freedom with maturity as much as we need to model abstinence. So you may feel like you need to abstain, but PLEASE do not teach it as "the best thing to do" or the rule for all "loving" Christians, because in doing so, you would be opposing the scriptures.
I don't flaunt my freedom, but I do resist attempts by prohibitionists to take us captive to their weak faith and lazy desires to make rules rather than mature disciples.
As my pastor used to say, I'd rather have a little wild fire than no fire at all. I'd rather have freedom with God's power than no freedom without it, which is what i think the choices here are. And I choose freedom when God gives it to me – not to flaunt it, but to keep myself from the deception of Pharisaical safety rules – the ones that tell you that you are safer if you keep the rules – because, except in specific cases where judicious application of safety rules exist, such rules hinder the spiritual walk rather than helping it.
but it is very easy to go from moral to excessive with wine.
Agreed, but prohibition is not the way to keep from that danger – maturity and self control are.
I’ve enjoyed reading this discussion. I don’t know how many alcoholic’s you know – but we have a ministry with them. They are not offended that others drink and they will tell you that you don’t slip into alcoholism one glass at a time. It’s more like a food alergy – there is no such thing as just having one drink.
Because they understand their condition and in the 12 step tradition don’t try to blame others over it – they are not critical of those who drink. They just can’t.
I have a friend who has a wheat alergy. Anything more than just a few grams a day of wheat will cause a bad physical reaction – but she doesn’t expect everyone around here to give up pizza or bread.
Another Bible verse I want to throw in is from Deuteronomy 14:25-26. In the following verses we are told to take our tithe money and spend it on wine or other fermented drink or on anything our heart desires.
So in the Old Testament at least, there was a command to drink on occasion – but mostly a realization that God had created great things for us to enjoy.
Seeker, you said:
Rather than emphasizing the biblical view, which is that alcohol, like sex and food, is to be enjoyed with moderation, you have fixed a more strict rule which is "Christians should never drink alcohol."
But I didn't say that. Notice our agreement here:
[you] But a flat prohibition is absolutely the wrong, and unbiblical solution.
[me]I agree with that.
I just think it is a very prideful attitude to say "I can drink, so I will."
It is not very caring about what other's may think when they see you drink.
At the very least it gives nonchristians a chance to mock God….
I just think it is a very prideful attitude to say "I can drink, so I will."
I am not saying that. I am saying that I refuse to surrender my liberty to self-righteous tea totalers who think that their way is more spiritual, and they then promulgate that false humility as gospel.
It is not very caring about what other's may think when they see you drink.
I think that modeling moderation, freedom, and self-control are just as important as the lesson you present by refusing alcohol. Some people may be offended by narrow spirituality that appears ascetic, when they know good and well that such things do not make one more spiritual. So you provide your example, and I will mine.
At the very least it gives nonchristians a chance to mock God….
I think that narrow tea-totalers give just as much opportunity for unbelievers to mock. Ever heard the term "holy roller" or "holier than thou"? Me too.
Look, we mostly agree, but I am just saying that I think the norm should be the position of greater freedom, which is that it is OK for Christians to enjoy wine. You may counter that the position of greater love is the other side of the coin, and I would admit that you are right. But as soon as you start saying that your position is superior, and make it a facet measurement of spirituality in your group, you've overstepped the bounds.
BTW, one of my orthodox Jewish friends emailed me this response:
above, Seeker said:
"I think it has been historically proven that the alcohol content of the "wine" or beer in older days was much less than it is in our modern times."
I'm wondering, what sources you can sight that say this?
Seeker did NOT say this, seeker repudiated this nonsense.
Lawanda,
I have read the conversation between you and "seeker" with interest. For the record, I am a Christian, I do drink on occasion, and there has been alcoholism in my family.
There is one very important point that seems to be missing from your writings. Drinking, trying drugs, having sex, even smoking–do not make people addicted to these substances. People become addicted because of serious emotional and psychological scars based on events in their life and in part based on biology. This is why the MAJORITY of people who partake of these activities never become addicted. When some event triggers the person's particular trauma reaction, they partake in whatever is their drug of choice (it can be alcohol, sex, or even shopping), to numb themselves and produce opioids in their brain.
I point this out for three reasons; 1) The argument that people should stay away from wine because they might become alcoholic does not hold up when one regards the facts above. It is misleading regarding the disease of alcoholism and its real causes and 2) This argument IS the kind meant to discourage people based on the fear that they might become addicted.
As the granddaughter and daughter of alcoholics, I certainly have a personal aversion to seeing peole who are addicted. But this is an entirely different thing from people who are having one or two glasses of alcohol, or even more, who have absolutely no addiction at all.
I think it is extremely clear that the bible overwhelmingly advises against abuse of alcohol. However, those who do abuse it are typically people who have had seriously traumatic events or also, it has been shown, have some possibly genetic propensity. These people should not be told to "Avoid alcohol because it is a sin". !!! Rather they need to be understood, helped, supported, in healing their wounds–through which they can free themselves from dependence.
Thanks for listening to other points of view.
"Only if I've done a good job. I tried to be fair, but my bias is showing ;).
But i would like to hear your several reasons. The important ones would be:
– as a safety from abuse, esp. if it runs in the family
– out of consideration for others
– don't like the taste,
– don't care to take the risk" –>
"A man's got to know his limitations." – Harry Callahan
Buy hydrocodone.
Buy hydrocodone online consultation. Buy hydrocodone online. Buy hydrocodone no prescription. Buy hydrocodone without a prescription. Buy hydrocodone.
Buy xanax.
Buy xanax.
Buy xanax.
Buy xanax.