A few days ago I heard an excellent message from Joe Dallas about how poorly the church responded to the AIDS crisis and to the homosexual community. As a former gay activists, he said at that point gay men were faced with their own mortality, opening the door for the church to show compassion and point them to hope in Christ.
Not only did the church fail to respond in that loving manner, many leaders and spokespersons for our faith openly celebrated the disease. How completely opposite from the first century church that ran into disease infected areas in the Roman Empire while everyone else was leaving. How unChristlike. He said that was a message the gay community would never forget.
Many of you may be shocked to know that the message was broadcast by Dr. James Dobson’s Focus on the Family.
To get a more accurate and fair view of how conservative Christians view gay people and how the church should have responded in that time of crisis, listen to the two part message:
Part 1, Part 2
He said many Christians had the “Jonah Syndrome” meaning they, like Jonah, want God to bring judgement on people He wants to love and forgive. He said, “I believe as we address the issue of homosexuality that God would call us to repent of whatever hostility exists within the church .. and recommit ourselves to bold love.” In addressing how to fix the damaged relationship between the church and the gay community, he said, “The gay and lesbian community is looking to the church for some verifiable evidence that we love them as we say that we do … [that we] value them as people, not just as objects to be converted.”
I think Christian and non-Christian, gay and straight would do well to listen to his message.
I've heard enough from Dobson and his ilk. His continuing attacks on the gay community disqualify him from serious consideration. I'm also tired of Christian "love," qualified as it always is by Christian "truth." The message is clear: continued disapproval masked by rhetoric of "love," along with continued political opposition. Who needs it? He's right on one thing: we will never forget nor forgive Christian "love."
To quote Rev. Wright, goddamn Dr. Dobson.
I was going to blog on this same show, it was really good – struck a great line between compassion and truth, leaning heavily on compassion. A good instruction for all of us.
You didn't even listen to it did you Louis? I didn't want to put Dobson's name because I knew you would see that and react without giving it a chance. The message is not from Dobson it is from Joe Dallas, a former gay activist. I wish you would give it a chance. You might find out we are not all as evil as you think and we don't all find you as evil as you think we do.
Please listen to it.
I should not have endorsed it, now Louis is sure that it is hateful ;)
next natural disaster, I think some prominent Christian needs to stand up and proclaim that it happened because of all the heterosexual immorality practiced by Christians.
i can't apologize for believing homosexuality to be a sin, but I can try to be against all sin impartially, especially mine….
Actually, when Falwell said such things, he included hetero promiscuity, abortion, divorce, and adultery in his litany of sins we should be expecting judgment upon.
I'm no longer interested in Christian commentary on hx. Too little, too late. Period.
I hate that you refuse to inform yourself because of your preconceived ideas. That Dallas confesses the church's sin in not responding correctly to the AIDS crisis is worth nothing to you?
You don't owe it to me or anyone else to listen to the audio, but I think it would give you a better picture of those of us who disagree with you. Just as we, Christians, need to do a better job of humanizing gay people. This may help you view us in a much more human way. That could be helpful. No?
It's not my ideas in question here, it's my experience. Christianity, and in our day conservative/fundamentalist/evangelical xianity, has been the implacable enemy of gay people. Just look at this page: on the fight is an ad for the anti-gay California marriage amendment. And just look at seeker's posts on gay-bashing lectures from xianists. I don't want your compassion and I don't want your love. You may hate it, Aaron, but you are reaping what you have sown. Many of us are so turned off by your religion that we just cannot respond anymore.
on the fight is an ad for the anti-gay California marriage amendment
That should read, "on the right…" although fight is a just word for what it proposes (along with jihad and pogrom).
btw: You seriously want me to listen and give credence to a "former gay activist" and "ex-gay" who is active in the so-called ex-gay movement? So, I tried listening and got as far as Dobson's intro, where he aimed this at gays who want to get out of the "gay lifestyle" and those who want to "help." Are you crazy? Are you out of your f*cking mind? This just shows how clueless you are, Aaron. If this is how you show your love and understanding, then count me out. Here's a question to ponder: are xians totally incapable of empathy and rationality, or has their religion totally destroyed that part of their brains? Or maybe faith has so displaced reason that they should be shunned by civilized human beings?
btw: Why don't we just avoid the topic altogether? You guys have no credibility on it, obviously.
It's really a shame that xianity is so hung up on human sexuality, so intensely stupid when it comes to hx. You seem like a nice guy otherwise. Maybe I should try to be kinder. After all, I wouldn't get mad if I couldn't describe a Monet painting to a blind man or a Mozart concerto to a deaf man. Sad, really.
It's really a shame that xianity is so hung up on human sexuality,
Yes, I mean, who cares if 1/4 of our teens have STD's, or people die with AIDS due to promiscuity? That has nothing to do with real life problems.
Who cares of people have children out of wedlock and create poverty? That's not important either.
You seriously want me to listen and give credence to a "former gay activist" and "ex-gay" who is active in the so-called ex-gay movement?
Yeah Aaron, everyone knows that real ex-gays don't exist, they're all posers and pawns of Christianity. No one has a right to be ex-gay, or think that they can change. That's bigotry! Don't offer them such false hopes, when science has proven that homosexuality is probably genetic, and is just another normal variant. How dare you question someone's <s>coping mechanism</s> gender orientation with scientific evidence, thoughtful dialogue, and meaningful questions that might reduce conflict without declaring either side as pariahs!
There will never be peace between gay freedom fighters and the backwards moralists who think homosexuality is a disorder! We will use science to overcome the inability of gays to reproduce, we don't care how gay parenting affects children, and we certainly don't care if the institution of marriage is diluted by the acceptance of our sexuality, or any of the other sexualities that will come in after us using our same logic.
F*ck you, seeker.
Sorry, was that a straw man of your position? Or too close to the truth?
btw: What a delightful example of xian "compassion" and "love" seeker has provided! Don't you agree, Aaron? Christianity sure looks a lot better to those of us damaged and attacked by it after reading seekers numerous sarcastic posts demonizing us and painting us as vile enemies of all that is true and good and pure. Is it any wonder that I see parallels with Hitler's rhetoric and tactics? This man is so obviously damaged by your wondrous religion that it is hard to comment coherently beyond the monosyllabic "f*ck you." What other response could possibly address the stupidity, arrogance, and assholiness that is seeker? Your cause is in the crapper, Aaron. Sorry, but it's true. Christianity looks like the cause of the moron, the bigot, and the sociopath.
What a delightful example of xian "compassion" and "love" seeker has provided!
I wasn't being sarcastic, I was trying to show how ridiculous your assertions were by providing a slightly exaggerated version of the typical gay response to the Christian assertion that sexual purity is very important, since people's lives depend on it.
And I am very serious about implying that gays do NOT care about how redefining marriage affects children, they primarily care about confirmation of their own choices. Primarily because homosexuality is necessarily narcissistic and selfish, like many identity dysfunctions.
Sure, they care about how homophobia affects gay children, but not how gay parenting affects childhood development, or how promoting the gay lifestyle might affect the probability of depression, suicide, drug use, morbidity and mortality in children.
Just because you are sensitive to such criticisms does not mean that they are not so, or worth discussing. You interpret such responses as hateful or sarcastic, but when you make such ridiculous polemical statements as "xianity is so hung up on human sexuality" you invite, nay, deserve a bit of ridicule.
Is it any wonder that I see parallels with Hitler's rhetoric and tactics?
It is perhaps not a wonder that you perceive all such criticisms as threatening and Hitlerish, not because they are so, but because the child's experience of moral disapproval feels like mortal threats, even when none are present.
And I understand that accusing you of employing 'childish' logic won't get us anywhere. However, as I outlined in What is Hate?, such a response is typical of a child's response to threats to self-concept.
The logical error you continue to engage in when comparing the moral disapproval of Chrstianity to Islam or Nazism is known as Guilt By Association
I have outlined exactly why Christianity's arguments against homosexuality will not lead to pogroms – because we differ in our MEANS to desired ENDS. Christian means prohibit the killing of dissenters.
And even though the OT did put hx in the category of a capitol crime, NO Christians that I know of have called for a return to such. Perhaps this is a good enough reason, however, to be conerned. You claim that historical Christianity did kill gays. Perhaps you are right to be concerned.
But I think that your comparison, and your fear, are not based in reality, are not really logical. Moral and social disapproval do not inevitably lead to oppression and murder. If they do, then I should fear you for your moral disapproval of my position. See?
The logical error you continue to engage in when comparing the moral disapproval of Chrstianity [sic] to Islam or Nazism is known as Guilt By Association.
Gee, all of a sudden stinker objects to guilt by association. He sure loves this rhetorical strategy when it comes to smearing Obama, but he hates it when he feels its lash. Filthy hypocrite.
btw: Historically, xianity is guilty of persecution and oppression of gay people (and Jews and pagans and heretics). It only stopped when forced to by the secular movement. This type of violent oppression is in its DNA and will rise again unless restrained. This is a historical fact. But, as usual, stinker ignores fact and reason, pleads for special treatment of his religion, and applies the double-standard to attack his critics. The only time he should fear me is if the old persecutions start again: then he and his ilk will have something to reckon with.
More Christian compassion for gay people:
"I would much prefer to export homosexuals from the United States than to import them into the United States because we believe homosexuality is destructive to society."
That's how Peter Sprigg, vice president of policy at the Family Research Council, explained the conservative group's opposition to the Uniting American Families Act, which would allow gay Americans the same right straight Americans have to sponsor a foreign partner for citizenship here.
He sure loves this rhetorical strategy when it comes to smearing Obama, but he hates it when he feels its lash. Filthy hypocrite.
Perhaps you could quote me smearing Obama. It's all in your MIND. No one has smeared him at all, we have only said that his membership in that church is seen as an implicit endorsement of Wright, just as if I'd been in a KKK church and never left, then claimed that I was not a racist. And many feel that his speeches, as good as they have been, are too little too late.
Like I said, he's a nice guy, but he's the victim of the stinky racism his church preached, even if he is not a racist.
In any case, I'll be glad if neither liberal gains the white house, for the sake of our unborn and our families.
"I would much prefer to export homosexuals from the United States than to import them into the United States because we believe homosexuality is destructive to society."
That is unfortunate, and I disagree with the FRC on this – I mean, even if I do agree that hx is bad for society, allowing people to bring in loved ones seems compassionate. However, how do we do so without redefining marriage? Gays seem to only want full parity with hetero marriage, and refuse to accept civil unions because they are separate and unequal, right?
If you won't define how we can give gays 'rights' without redefining the basic, biological, sociological family unit of hetero-led families, then you will always be at odds with society.
But in the end, while I think we need to hold the line in the legislative arena, will not be won there. It can only be won by education and spiritual transoformation of society through preaching and regenerative faith in Christ. Which is where I will be putting my efforts.
Don't hold your breath.
It's interesting: Aaron is upset because I won't listen to yet another explanation of just how "compassionate" and "loving" Christians are even though they continue to judge and condemn us. A perfect example is seeker's answer above: compassion always falls by the way-side when it comes to compromising heterosexual privilege and xian dogma. Really, why should gay people pay any attention to any of this? We are always being judged by you guys because your holy book condemns us. As long as you value dogma and xian ideology over real flesh and blood human beings your assertions of love and compassion will follow on deaf ears. Maybe it's you guys who need to soften your hardened hearts and abandon the letter of the Law for the spirit of the Law. It seems to me that you heteros do a lot more damage to society than gays could ever do. But, of course, you must be without sin because you feel you're allowed to judge me and condemn me for something over which I have no control. What is it about xianity that strips human beings of the most basic feelings of empathy and compassion?
Louis, I think you might like this…
Gay Scientists Isolate Christian Gene
Yes, hilarious indeed. It's always instructive to observe reality when stood on its head.
Which brings up the point: in some cultures, xianity is deemed a perversion. I sympathize with persecuted xians in those cultures. Why can't xians sympathize with me? Why can't simple human solidarity and compassion trump ideology? Isn't that, at base, what Christ was about?
compassion always falls by the way-side when it comes to compromising heterosexual privilege and xian dogma
Why is it that liberal 'compassion' means letting people continue in harmful behavior, as if that is kind?
in some cultures, xianity is deemed a perversion. I sympathize with persecuted xians in those cultures. Why can't xians sympathize with me? Why can't simple human solidarity and compassion trump ideology? Isn't that, at base, what Christ was about?
No, only in liberal theology that jettisons truth for undiscerning acceptance of anything. When Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery "go and sin no more," liberals ignore that. So do gays.
To those who continue in sin without apology, Jesus says "it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for you on the day of judgment."
You just assume that you have the truth. What hubris.
And your last sentence provides us, once again, with the iron face of injustice which you embody so well. So, please, let us discuss compassion no more here. What this blog, and conservative/fundamentalist/evangelical xianity, stands for is not compassion or reconciliation or love, but the most severe merciless and hard-hearted legalism.
I pity you.
You just assume that you have the truth. What hubris.
Right back atcha. Do you assume that the truth can't be known? I mean, how do you KNOW that hx is really not a dysfunction?
with the iron face of injustice which you embody so well.
My mention of both mercy and truth is what Jesus was all about. Your rejection of the truth shows that, as Jesus might say, "you do not hear my words because the truth is not in you."
This whole argument is pointless. Nobody knows what truth is, even religionists I daresay.
As to having the truth: I freely admit I don't have it. But I do have the science and reason on my side, while seeker has the Bible on his (ie, faith). Another thing: I don't pretend to know the mind of God, while seeker thinks he does. That's the problem with fundies of all stripes: hubris. They believe they know the mind of God and try to inflict their belief on the rest of us. That's why I lump them all together.