This study has been out for some time, but I wanted to reiterate it in order to show one thing – that homosexuality is not only pathological, but when same-sex marriage advocates push for marital rights, they are trying to tell us that long-term, loving gay MONOGAMOUS relationships are a reality. But as the study discussed in Long Term Gay Relationships shows:
McWhirter and Mattison spent five years studying 156 male couples – 312
individuals – “in loving relationships lasting from one to thirty-seven
years” (p. ix)….not a single couple reported sexual fidelity lasting
longer than five years (p. 252}.
When asked why they want sex outside
the relationship, here are some of the answers they gave (pp. 253):
- “All my sexual needs are not met by my partner. Sex together gets boring at times, and I need new material for my fantasies.”
- “My partner is not really my sexual type. I still like to have sex with a certain type of guy.”
- “It’s fun and adventure. The more variety and number of partners, the more adventure and fun.”
- “I have some kinky sexual interests that my partner doesn’t share.”
- “We have found that having sex with others often enhances our sex together afterward.”
I remember watching The Family Stone and thinking "How can she wish her kids were gay?" Because it is a difficult life, to say the least.
Reading that article made me sad that people choose to live like that.
Similarly, I am sad when people divorce, too, even when there are many or good reasons for it.
I think it is pretty clear based upon our collective discussions here that gays do not want anyone's pitty. They want equality just like women, blacks, and those that chose to marry inter-racially in this country. Period.
That people are shedding tears for parents and gays that living their lives is just a non-starter as pitty and sadness is not what is wanted by this group. As a hispanic decent, I want no one's pitty for the fact that I am hispanic and that I am discriminated against. I want equality and respect.
I think it is particularly hard for WASPs to understand this as they are very seldom if ever the victims of direct discrimination (racial, social, etc)…and I do not count the whole affirmative action question, but rather the reality of every day interaction with people.
(Lawanda, I will reply to your comment in the other thread later today).
S, I think you mistook Lawanda’s compassion for pity. They may not understand or want this type of compassion, the type that recognizes that they are caught in a dysfunctional lifestyle that hurts them, but this type of compassion, one that feels for those caught in sin, is what God requires – a compassion that does not fail to recognize the truth of the situation. That compassion is the first step towards helping people.
Seeker,
I think you mistook Lawanda's compassion for pity. They may not understand or want this type of compassion, the type that recognizes that they are caught in a dysfunctional lifestyle that hurts them, but this type of compassion, one that feels for those caught in sin, is what God requires – a compassion that does not fail to recognize the truth of the situation. That compassion is the first step towards helping people.
On the contrary I make no mistake in my interpretation. The expression of sadness especially in this context is the equivalent of expressing pitty. That pitty is both unwanted and disregarded out of hand by those that are discriminated against…whether you are a hispanic, a black, or a homosexual. For that sadness is neither desired or wanted when ultimatly what is sought in any of those cases is respect and equality.
While you may position and place your expression of social dysfunction and God's love as an excuse to discriminate and show compassion towards Gays, it is nothing more that an excuse to act as a Bigot with the cloak of the bible and your interpretation of God's will.
I know you will disagree. Frankly, I would like to think that people are better than resorting to that sort of base defense to be a discriminatory and filled with hate. One can derive so many meanings from scriptures in the Christian faiths…be it a Catholic, a Protestant, a Southern Baptist, or a non-Denominational evangelical Christian.
What troubles me the most is that because I know you personally, it makes it even harder to believe the level of hatred and bigotry I see in your posts is really reflected in the kind person I know in real life. While I can only take others that express similar levels of disdain on this site at face value (Lawanda–sorry, but your words are here and you continuously back them up), I have a closer up RL view of you.
As I think I saw Keith express so eloquently, if one is going to preach the Gospel or try and convince others that their way of thinking is correct, one must have a innate skill of Diplomacy. Honestly in all the years I have known you, that is a skill you sorely lack and so desperately need. You lack the ability to be diplomatic with others and be consistent.
Instead it is always go on the attack, attack, attack. You will get nowhere if you continue to take this tack. Similarly you must come out of the shadows and own your own words. You have no credibility otherwise.
Having said all this…probably more long winded than you care to even read…I stand by my assessment. The compassion that you describe is nothing more than pitty masked with bigotry under the cloak of self-righteousness of the your interpretation of the Bible and your thoughts on what God would think.
I can be friends with all sorts of people…that includes those that I find to be discriminatory, racist, or bigots. That does not remove the fact that I perceive those that express pity or justify discrimination regardless of grounds as bigots.
Sorry my friend. That is how I view this from a very personal perspective of experiencing racial discrimination first hand, and my core moral and philosophical values. Label them however you will…I know you will for that is the quick and expedient way…but the view I have is true to my religious and moral beliefs and is between me and God.
Your Friend…
S.
That pitty is both unwanted and disregarded out of hand by those that are discriminated against…whether you are a hispanic, a black, or a homosexual. For that sadness is neither desired or wanted when ultimatly what is sought in any of those cases is respect and equality.
It is unwanted by those who desire to persist in their damaging lifestyle. But let me provide an analogy. If you feel compassion for youths caught in the gang lifesteyle, and express that to them, they may not want your pity, and may see nothing wrong with selling drugs and intimidating rivals, but YOU know it's a bad lifestyle. But is your compassion illegitimate because they don't want it or understand the truth of their situation? No.
Now, the fact that they don't recognize their error might change how you approach them with your compassion, so that they don't see it as unwanted pity, but that doesn't make your compassion illegitimate.
The thing that makes compassion legitimate is if one has rightly assessed the situation, and Lawanda contends that she feels for them because she believes they are in a destructive, unhealthy life. You may think that's merely patronizing pity, but if she is right in her assessment, you are totally incorrect.
I feel compassion for women who are in physically abusive relationships too. I try, even, to help them get out of said relationships because it is harming them.
Most of the time, though, they do not want help. They do not want to see that they are in a bad situation. In part, I am sure, because they feel terrible for having got themselves into it to begin with. And they probably feel many other things I don’t know, although I definitely can sympathize with their feelings, as I get myself into bad situations sometimes too…
But even though my “pity” or sympathy is unwanted, I still cannot help feeling it. Especially for those who are choosing to stay in their sad situation.
Did you read the article? It had quotes from gay men about their lifestyle. The words did not sound happy to me, coming from them. I felt sad for them.
I think in order for the women’s suffrage movement to have ever begun SOME ONE had to feel sad for the bad situation women were in. That situation is different though, in that women (slaves, etc…) did not put themselves into that situation by their actions. Men did.
Same with other really discriminatory plights. Different races have been discriminated against with true hate. People who judged others by their appearance, which was different from their own, and not by their actions.
Actions are something a person can change. With your gender, the color of your skin, your nationality or ancestry — those are some things that a person cannot change.
To disagree with a another person’s actions is quite common for humans. It is not necessarily disdainful, although I know it can be.
*I* still do not hate the people I disagree with. And I don’t think seeker does either, even though he does try to prove a point with harsher words than necessary sometimes… (We all do that as well, I have noticed…)
You, Silver, are just as dogmatic (bigoted?) in your view that just because a person disagrees with what someone else is doing, that they hate the someone else and are discriminating against them in some way by saying they disagree with someone else’s said actions.
Lawanda,
I read the article. As seeker is so fond of pointing out, data can be manipulated in any way to support a person's supposition. The report is flawed in more ways than I care to mention….it is cow pucky.
On these two points I am going to address and then I am going silent…for no matter how you slice and justify your reasons…the position you and Seeker take against gays from a legal and civil perspective under the guise of the Bible is misguided and bigoted. It is no different than being a racist against a jew, or a black, or a hispanic. Since, I highly doubt you have ever been the direct victim of racial discriminaton I am very confident that you have no point of reference to really understand where I am coming from (having experienced such racial discrimination due to my hispanic decent)
Point 1:
You, Silver, are just as dogmatic (bigoted?) in your view that just because a person disagrees with what someone else is doing, that they hate the someone else and are discriminating against them in some way by saying they disagree with someone else's said actions.
That is just your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, I will say this being married into a family that hails from the deep south. There are elements within my own wife's family that to this day hates blacks, hispanics, and carries a real racist attitude towards them. My point being in mentioning this is this: those that are racists and display a level of bigotry that is simply unconscionable seldom if ever recognize it themselves…instead they justify it.
I can similarly point to a friend of mine who holds the same view as you and Seeker (actually seeker knows him)..who is in an interacial marriage. Such a marriage 50 years ago was highly frowned upon by people of strong religious faith and others of lesser devotion and justified said discrimination by qouoting scripture to describe its immorality.
I can only assume based upon out conversations here and the one time we all shared photos (waaay back when) that you are an White Anglo Saxon Protestant (WASP) hailing from the Midwest. Thus it is highly unlikely if not absolutely certain that you have never or will never experience the type of racial discrimination that I as a hispanic have experienced. Having that context and then talking to gay friends I have rings 100% absolute parallels in terms of the kind of hatred and discrimination that exists in this country for gays.
Point 2:
*I* still do not hate the people I disagree with. And I don't think seeker does either, even though he does try to prove a point with harsher words than necessary sometimes… (We all do that as well, I have noticed…)
It is not a question of hating those he disagrees with or anyone else for that matter. It is the extent that his or anyone elses words (say you or Aaron) is willing to condone legal discrimination against others that is hatred. I may disagree with your stance Lawanda, but let me be very clear, I do not hate you. Rather, I do believe that you are very discriminatory in your views against others you do not understand, but I do not hate you.
That is a very distinct differnce.
As to carrying this on even further…I seem to remember words that you once wrote when it came to the question of home schooling with your children. To paraphrase, I am taking the best interst of my children to heart in my decision to not use the public school system. My fear is the promiscuity and propensity of gay children to torment, torture, and endanger my children.
You made this decision based upon your own personal experience. While others railed against you, I stood up and respected the reasoning (trying to protect your children) while still trying to dig a little deeper.
Perhaps that is what you are attempting to do here, but it sure doesn't look like it. My position is based directly from my first hand experience of racial discrimination. From that grows a greater empathy and understanding for what gays go through in this society than you can ever know. I, like you, further derive my belief from my religious upbringing and my own core moral compass.
Regardless of all the conversations that you and I have had, I have never (intentionally) questioned your moral compass or your religious beliefs. At every turn, I have questioned imposing those religious beliefs on others and imposing legal sanctions against a minority.
I ask that you do the same in kind. For if we cannot do that, then there is no point in engaging in any conversation. I respect all people's religious beliefs, but I do not respect justifying racist or discriminatory legal action against others becuase it is intrepreted to come from those beliefs. Thus, somehow jsutified.
I stand firm in my position. Unless you are willing to enter the gay lifestyle or somehow become a black or hispanic and live through racism on a daily basis. I cannot entertain softening my stance.
With all due respect.
Silver
Silver, I respect your views. I respect anyone who is willing to be reasonable and respectful. I have never worried over your posts (being mean or anything) and I appreciate that. :)
White Anglo Saxon Protestant
Not quite. I am white…
Women, and especially women with children, are sometimes still discriminated against too. So I can empathize with that.
See, to me, here is the crux of the whole thing:
Unless you are willing to enter the gay lifestyle or somehow become a black or hispanic and live through racism on a daily basis.
I could very well enter the homosexual lifestyle, any time I WANTED to. I cannot become black, or hispanic, or a man.
Homosexuals are not born homosexual. No one is born with their sexuality defined. Homosexuals enter it knowing that the majority of people do not think it is moral or even natural. They enter it knowing that their families will not appreciate it.
They enter it knowing that they do not have to do it. You just do not HAVE to have sex to survive or even necessarily to be happy.
I stood up and respected the reasoning (trying to protect your children) while still trying to dig a little deeper.
Perhaps that is what you are attempting to do here, but it sure doesn’t look like it. My position is based directly from my first hand experience of racial discrimination.
I am trying to get people to think outside the usual politically rhetorical box they are all in. It really bugs me that people don’t even TRY to have their own ideas (even, or especially, ones based on biblical principles) and when they do, they are regarded as a bigot.
I do not force people to live my way. I cannot even live the way I know to be right, ALWAYS. I sin too.
But I cannot say nothing while gay people claim it is mistreatment not to be allowed to legally marry.
Re: homeschooling. I think our public school system is about as a communistic idea as it can be. So, while one of my personal reasons for homeschooling (luckily I still can legally!) is to protect my children from violence, I also think our policies regarding education are very misdirected in this country.
If it did come to it, and homeschooling were to be made illegal, I would be part of a loud political minority myself trying to get it BACK to being legal. ;)
This should say: But I cannot say nothing while gay people claim it is mistreatment not to be allowed to legally marry. I do not think it is discrimination. More like qualifications met or not met.
I do not think it is discrimination. More like qualifications met or not met.
Again, unfortunately, the word "discrimination" has taken on a purely negative connotation in our time, and our communication has suffered because of it.
As I pointed out, not all discrimination is unjust. Qualifications by definition will discriminate – some loans are only for minorities, and that's discrimination, but that doesn't make it unjust.
So, Lawanda, we agree, that such limitations on marriage also "discriminate" against polygamists, polyandrists, polyamorists, and bestialists, to name a few. Gays, in my opinion, have no more right to "marriage rights" than two lifelong friends who live together, and both have the legal means to ensure death benefits on insurance (beneficiary), inheritance rights (will), and medical right of decision (power of attorney).
If there are financial "rights" that marriage allows besides a meager tax benefit, I have no problem with anyone procuring these for their significant others.
But sanctioning gay marriage legally, and by extension, forcing it to be taught as normative to the next generation in the schools, can only hasten our moral and social decline, and it is positively unethical to condone such dangerous choices that, medically speaking, are linked with increased depression and other mental illness, increased sickness, and early death. Supporting the sanction of gay marriage is sanctioning, MEDICALLY speaking (despite what the recent politically-driven changes to the DSM say), a dysfunctional and illness-driven identity and lifestyle choice, and is therefore immoral and unethical and socially irresponsible.
Please note, bible bashers, that I did not mention the bible once in my explanations.
Why should heterosexuals be alone in their misery? Perhaps, if gays had to marry, they would shut up under the load of misery and long for the good ol' days of freedom!