Jesus Creed has a nice thread on Christian tattooing, with links to some nice xian tats. The discussion, of course, is around the passage in Leviticus 19:28 that forbids tattooing. Of course, the counterpoint is that this passage must be taken in context (Leviticus 19:26-31), as interpreted below. I have always wanted a tattoo, and actually designed the one to the right for my back (represents my wife and kid – now I have to add another kid), but haven’t done it yet. Also, don’t miss the Sacred Ink flash presentation of xian tats and the testimonies of those who have them.
In this passage God is speaking to his covenant people Israel. He is specifically telling them to stay far from the religious practices of the surrounding people groups. The prohibited religious practices in these verses include eating bloody meat, fortune telling, certain hair cuts related to the priests of false cults, cutting or marking the body for dead relatives, cultic prostitution and consulting psychics. All these practices would lead God’s beloved people away from Him and toward false gods that were not Gods at all. In the midst of this context we find the word translated “tattoo marks” in verse 28. It is important to note here that the context of this passage is not one of body décor but one of marking one’s self in connection with cultic religious worship.
Don't you eat shellfish? What is it with you people? Either Leviticus matters or it doesn't. You don't get to pick. Honestly, you Christians and your selective enforcement of your own friggin rules.
Either Leviticus matters or it doesn't. You don't get to pick.
Not everyone shares your simplistic, all-or-nothing hermeneutic. I do eat shellfish. And bacon.
And that's why you're a hypocrite. You have a book with rules in it, and you pick and choose the rules you do and don't like, and then you hop up and down like a madman when others don't choose to follow the rules you think are important? Don't you realize how insane that is?
I don't get it. Who's hopping? I am all for tattoos and eating shellfish. These things are not inherently immoral. But killing, lying, stealing, sexual sins, these thins are inherently immoral. Just because you can't tell these apart (maybe Moses should have put them in separate books so we didn't have to think) doesn't mean I am a hypocrite because I don't apply some simplistic black-and-white rule to everything.
You are a hypocrite – the Bible says don't eat shellfish. So don't eat it. Follow the stupid rules, or don't, but don't pick and choose which rules you like and then get pissed when others don't listen to you.
This is Sam's favorite case against the Christian morality or at least his most cited.
I know we have delved into this on several occassions, but OT/Mosiac law was written for the nation of Israel as whole to seperate them from other nations, to demonstrate the distinctness of God, Jehovah, from other national gods, and for sanitary reasons.
Many of the things they were barred from doing would have hurt them physically, but those same things are safe for us today because of advances in technology and sanitation.
There were also many promises that God gave to them as a nation that I do not see God giving any other nation because of their distinct relationship with God – chosen people, pre-Messiah.
So it is not just the "negative," but the positive. It is not just rules that are no longer as binding, but also promises.
And when it comes to issues such as the morality of murder, lying, sex outside of marriage, pride, lust, etc. we do not have to look at Leviticus. The NT also condemns those as sins.
Dietary regulations are not quite the same as "have no other gods before Me."
Dietary regulations are not quite the same as "have no other gods before Me."
How so? I have never understood this commandment. I mean, if your God, why would you care if people worshipped you or not? However, I can certainly see how the church would care which Gods people worshipped.
Because God desires our worship. It is one of the few things He has intentionally removed from His authority. He wants us to want Him.
Think about in terms of marrying someone – is it the same if I hold a gun to my wife's head and force her to recit vows as if she willingly chose to promise to spend the rest of her life with me. By an act of her free will she wanted to be with me and only me, that means more than if I force her.
God could have created us as robots to worship Him and never question it, but He wants something bigger and better. He wants us to choose to worship Him. He wants us to look at everything else and choose Him.
Just like we want our wife or husband to choose us above anyone else on Earth, God wants us to do the same with Him.
I was speaking in terms of love with marriage and when I think of marriage I think of a life-long committment not a here-today, gone-tomorrow because I don't feel like type thing.
Regardless of the punishment that lies after this life, you still have a choice as to what you do in this life. After we die, we will know who's right, wrong, etc. So there is no real choice involved then. We have this life to decide what we want to do with God. He offers us the chance to freely worship Him, but at some point He makes it clear "every knee will bow."
If God is God everyone eventually know it, the choice part comes in recognizing that fact before you are left no other choice.
He wants each person to choose to worship and love Him, so He gives us the command letting us know this fact. Just as I give a "command" to my son asking him to do something, when he chooses to do this without me having to punish him that makes me feel like he loves and respects me more than if I have to take away toys to get him to clean up his room.
I hope this clears up this topic for you and no longer takes away from Christian and tattoos, which I have no problem with – don't and won't have any myself – but I honestly don't care, although my pastor preached against it Sunday.
You don't have a life long commitment with every woman you fall in love with. In the father son analogy, the son grows up and no longer follows the father's commands. The father knows his son still loves him although the son no longer obeys him, he is his own man. A commandment to "love" someone is nonsense. Aaron, these analogies are awful because they don't relate to the commandment, "Have no other gods before Me."
You are a hypocrite – the Bible says don't eat shellfish.
You are a simplistic cretin (since you want to namecall) – the bible isn't merely a book of rules. You want faith to fit your narrow straw man version of how you think people of faith should or do live, but your charicature is merely an unintellectual, immature self-reinforcing illusion. "People of faith are like this, and I disagree with this, therefore faith is bad." Your theology needs to seriously grow up.
Marriage is different than "fall in love with." Where did that come from?
I agree the analogies are stretched only because it is difficult to put a human-God relationship in terms of a human-human relationship. But you make the analogies worse by taking them farther than I did. We can do that with almost any analogy anyone makes.
I have never understood this commandment. I mean, if your God, why would you care if people worshipped you or not?
Because false Gods lead to bondage and harm. Because worshipping a lie is the essence of insanity – not seeing things as they are is dangerous. And as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 10:20
the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God
although my pastor preached against it Sunday.
Interesting. I'd say that's a non-essential doctrine, for sure.
Marriage is different than "fall in love with. Where did that come from?" -Aaron
I was speaking in terms of love with marriage -Aaron
This command is not as self-evident as Don't Kill or Love thy Neighbor. It seems it has nothing to do with law or even morality. It's as if it was placed there by someone as a control system. Holy cow! hehe I googled 10 commandments and I've just learned that there are 3 different versions of them!!!
Which Ten Commandments?
Taking the Lord's name in vain seems kind of useless also in practical terms. I mean, it seems to serve no purpose.
Were you not aware of one of my side ventures, display-the-ten.com?
No, I thought the ten commandments were literally, “written in stone” :P This is crazy. Theologians chose from a list of statements! They also have different translations. It seems the more research I do on Christianity the less I understand. It’s so counter intuitive! This also makes Sam’s point that practitioners translate/interpret the bible differently so they have to choose what parts of the bible to follow and how. Seeker you have posted a precise example of this in, “Should Christians Tattoo?” The answer is of course, “It depends upon who you ask.” I’m not doing anything different when I decide not to follow “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” It makes little if any sense really for reasons already cited. Sam’s point is, don’t take the bible literally. Also, if they put the Hebrew version of the 10 commandments in front of the Supreme Court, Evangelicals are sure to cry foul.
Or the Catholic version.
Seeker,
What on Earth do you mean "The Bible isn't a book of rules?" You are constantly shoving the Bible's stupid rules down our throat's every day. "Homosexuality is immoral because the Bible says so," to quote one of many examples. You don't approve of oral sex because the Bible allegedly goes against it. You don't approve of most things because the Bible tells you not to.
So which is it? A book of rules that we all should follow because you say so, or a book of rules that only kind of, occaisonally matter, you know, whenever you feel like it. This is the problem with Christianity (and every other religion the world over); the rank hypocrisy of it.
While I'm at it Seeker, accusing me of being the simplistic one, while you castigate others simply for making decisions that you don't approve of, strikes me as the immature and idiotic approach. I don't care that you're a Christian; I care that you want to ruin everybody else's life because of it.
What on Earth do you mean "The Bible isn't a book of rules?" You are constantly shoving the Bible's stupid rules down our throat's every day.
How have I done that? By arguing that homosexuality is a sin? Me thinks you protest too much. By supporting pro-life and pro-family legislation? Get over yourself. Your overuse of hyperbole is tiring.
"Homosexuality is immoral because the Bible says so," to quote one of many examples.
I have also noted other arguments for the immorality and unnnaturalness of homosexuality. I only cite the bible when people claim that the bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. I have expressly said that appeals to biblical authority are not permissible in public policy debates. But maybe you missed that. But you hear what you want to rather than what people write, often.
You don't approve of oral sex because the Bible allegedly goes against it.
Actually, I specifically said that the bible is silent on the issue, and that each couple must decide according to their own conscience. You are lying out of your *ss, Sam. I argued that it was against *design*, and that I find it a bit repulsive to put my mouth on/in an excretory organ. That's my prerogative, and I certainly didn't make any legislative claims based on that, nor any judgements on those who want to do such acts within hetero marriage, even though I think them wrong. These clearly fall within the bounds of Romans 14, as I explained in Navigating Moral Gray Areas.
You don't approve of most things because the Bible tells you not to.
No, I reason, using the bible as a trusted source. If I was simplistic like you want me to be, I wouldn't eat shellfish, would want to kill gays, and would force women to wear headcoverings. Thank God that most Christians do not fulfill your negative, highly perverted caricature. Unlike you, I am not interested in finding every reason I can to dismiss faith. Rather, I am looking for a reasonable faith, and Xianity is it.
So which is it? A book of rules that we all should follow because you say so, or a book of rules that only kind of, occaisonally matter, you know, whenever you feel like it.
It is not a book of rules at all, nor will it bend to your simplistic either/or demands, which are akin to "have you stopped beating your wife" questions.
It is a revelation of God's historic interaction with man, and the revealing of His mind about all aspects of life. Portions of it were rules for the Jews, portions are principles for morality and spirituality, and the majority of it points to the sinfulness of man and need for redemption in Christ.
This is the problem with Christianity (and every other religion the world over); the rank hypocrisy of it.
No, the problem is that you have a warped view of Christianity and other religions, and you hold to your view to reinforce your own world view that allows you to exclude Christ.
Of course Seeker, of course, the problem is mine. You are perfect, God's creation sent to Earth to advocate for laws that will never hurt you but will most certainly hurt others. My apologies.
Speaking of Christians and tatoos, Seeker are there may evangelical babes sporting those cool designs on their lower back? I love those things and I support them fully, even on evangelical chicks. The irony is that tatoos used to be the mark of a rebel. If even evangelical babes pimp these little beauties above their bottoms, then it means tatoos have been played out :( What a Shame! One thing I can usually count on is that religious women usually vocalize their faith in bed. They can almost make a "believer" out of me too but I bite my tongue.
I haven't seen too many, but then, I hang out with the thirty plus crowd. I'm sure they exist. But tats will are kind of perennial, like levis and t shirts.
I love it when Christians, when faced with the inherent contradictions of their own religion, simply argue that everybody else is ignorant.
Like on this food thing. God says man with man is an abombination. So Christians go crazy, calling gays sexual deviants and sinners.
God says eating shellfish is an abombination, meaning that it is exactly the same in God's eyes. Christians eat shellfish.
Whenever this is pointed out, Christians say, "Oh you don't understand the difference." And of course, I don't understand the difference. But that's because there isn't one, and you guys pick and choose the rules you do and don't follow. I have no problem with that, except when you start demanding that everybody else follow the same rules. What's really interesting is that different Christian groups – the Apostolics for instance – would argue that your wives are deviant sinners for getting *gasp* haircuts. And those are the some pretty hardcore Christians. But you say, "Oh, the Apostolics don't understand what's really going on." There's no rhyme or reason to any of this nonsense, and yet people like Septeus7 act as if the answers are blatantly obvious, and that anybody who doesn't understand the differences is an idiot. That's laughable.
Well it's kind of simple if you ask yourself- (WWJD).. What Would Jesus do?
Asara,
If you ask yourself what Jesus would do, I somehow think that the answer isn't "Deprive gays of all rights, desperately hoping that it will make them go away." Also, blindly following someone without making decisions for yourself is just plain stupid.
I somehow think that the answer isn’t “Deprive gays of all rights, desperately hoping that it will make them go away.”
This thread is about Christians and tatooing, not gays. So Asara, how would you determine of Jesus would tatoo?
Also, blindly following someone without making decisions for yourself is just plain stupid.
We all agree on that here Sam. But not following someone because some hypocrites do is equally stupid ;)
I haven’t read through all the comments, but I’d like to point out something about the verse referenced (apologies if this has been covered in the comments). If you read the entire verse you see it is talking about a very specific type of marking.
This is the verse:
“Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.” [emphasis mine]
That verse clearly states a specific purpose that the marks and cuttings were done. It had to do with pagan worship (I don’t have time to get into the specifics right now) and this is the only verse in the Bible that talks about tattooing.
It is perfectly fine for Christians to get tattooed, as long as it does not fall under the circumstance set above.
As far as levitical law goes in general (and to address those arguments above about shellfish), remember that Christ came and freed the Jews from the old laws under the new Covenant. They were no longer bound by the old laws and restrictions. Don’t forget about Peter’s vision where the Lord set a feast of all different foods before him, including “unclean” animals, and told him it was all ok for him to eat. Paul tells us that it is what comes out of a man, not what goes into him, that defiles him.
wow…i just read all those comments.
not sure on the tattoos, or the shellfish. though i am sure that Christianity is the following of Christ – not of Christians…especially all of us imperfect Christians who don't always know the right words to use when standing up for and explaining our faith.
Christ along with the law were impaled.
Eat the shellfish, we are no longer under Mosaic law.
Do you want to set yourself apart from the non-Christian world in which we live? Or do you want to kind of camouflage yourself amongst the world and straddle the fence of being a follower/non-follower. To me, that is the issue with tattoos, not what it resembles.
A rule of thumb I have always heard spiritual men say is "If its in doubt its out", letting ones conscious based on scriptural knowledge/wisdom to be their guide.
All the comments are so useless. You are waisting your time fighting back and forth about things that matter not. What matters is that we preach the Good News of Salvation to the world, not spread laws and rules to one another. If someone doesn’t accept the Good News of Salvation then just walk away. Being a christian, christianity, or whatever is not about who is doing what and why and ooh Im telling. When did Jesus ever say that that was our purpose as christians? Its not. Its not about Whos is doing what lets judge them because they are going to hell. Its the message of hope that we should be spreading not of condemnation. God is the only one who has the authority to judge anyone! As a christian our job is to Love as Jesus did.
u idiots!!! the bloody and unclean meat thing only applies to jews stupid
all that ever matters is your realationship with christ im 13 and i can see that if u cant you are truly blind