The Defenders is a cool new oraganization fighting pornography, especially child porno, through encouraging men to avoid it and to speak out against it. They have a cool tv spot, and a book list which includes Joe Dallas’ The Game Plan : The Men’s 30-Day Strategy for Attaining Sexual Integrity and Bill Perkins’ When Good Men Are Tempted, among others. You may recognize Joe Dallas as the author of gay recovery books, including Desires in Conflict: Hope for Men Who Struggle With Sexual Identity.
Bill Perkins came and talked at my church’s Men’s retreat, and his candid, often explicit language and approach to sexual temptation was refreshing and inspiring. His Million Mighty Men campaign is a good one for men wanting to become real, Christian men with integrity.
Of course, these are just a couple of the excellent ministries that are fighting sin in our culture, not through legislation, but through education, inspiration, and encouragement towards personal holiness and responsibility. Others include Promise Keepers, XXX Church, New Man Magazine, and The International Men’s Network (Ed Cole, who has been doing this for over 25 years, and whose books Maximized Manhood and Courage changed my life as a young Christian in 1988).
The "Defender Pledge" includes this verbiage:
As a Defender, I pledge I will…
1) Refuse to be a victim of the commercial sex industry. I acknowledge that pornography, prostitution, and sexual addiction have no place in my life and that it is not only harmful to the women and children involved, but also to myself and those around me.
2) Commit to stand up and speak out — holding other men accountable for their behaviors and actions, being a wingman for friends in my life, and finding tools to help us avoid gateways to addiction and abuse.
3) Educate and protect children from the dangers of online recruitment by predators. Play an active role in monitoring their activity online and report any suspicious behavior.
4) Refrain from looking at, buying, or collecting pornography, knowing it is the gateway to child victimization in the commercial sex industry.
5) Say no to purchasing sexual services. I will not support the devaluation of my sisters, daughters, and friends.
Child pornography is wrong and should be illegal everywhere. Having said this, pornography involving consenting adults is a private matter and, so long as no harm is done, is okay. It’s not immoral or a sin. Live and let live,
triedtrite and true.Having said this, pornography involving consenting adults is a private matter and, so long as no harm is done, is okay. It's not immoral or a sin.
That is your opinion, which of course I disagree with. But I am glad that these organizations are working to encourage biblical manhood that includes faithfulness, sexual purity, and concern for the victims of pornography, which is everyone involved. It's OK if you are not yet part of the solution on this one.
But I thought that you would be glad that all of these non-legislative efforts to support the family are taking place. I was mistaken.
Having said this, pornography involving consenting adults is a private matter and, so long as no harm is done, is okay. It’s not immoral or a sin.
That is your opinion, which of course I disagree with. But I am glad that these organizations are working to encourage biblical manhood that includes faithfulness, sexual purity, and concern for the victims of pornography, which is everyone involved. It’s OK if you are not yet part of the solution on this one.
But I thought that you would be glad that all of these non-legislative efforts to support the family are taking place. I was mistaken.
It's a bit like Aaron's post about Southern Baptists and drinking except a different focus?
The prohibition on alcohol is not biblical. Faithfulness to your spouse and fleeing lust (the essence of pornography) are absolutely biblical.
Faithfulness to your spouse and fleeing lust (the essence of pornography)
One does not necessarily have anything to do with the other though.
Seeker,
I thought you may be interested in this site I found, seriously. A Barometer of Modern Morals (Sex, Drugs, and the 1040) It's germane to your post to boot.
Seeker,
This is ridiculous. There are -some- people in the world who enjoy their sex differently than you do. That doesn't make them sinners, nor less worldly, or whatever other criticism you want to throw at them. And here we have, once again, a perfect example of Christian (and conservative) socialism; "For the good of the group, we must get rid of pornography. We must avoid it, for seeing people having sex will scar us forever."
Why isn't this Joe Dallas fellow working on actually important issues, like the abuse of children? Why is he wasting his time telling consenting adults what they cannot enjoy in the privacy of their own homes?
Sam, as with Cineaste on the Baptist and beer thing, you misunderstand most of these issues.
Christians seek to deal with things within their own ranks. Christians work to prevent other Christians from getting drunk or messing with porn. This does not automatically equate into outlawing for everyone.
As you say, if you want to be against it fine. Why can Christians not hold one another to a high standard of purity? Can Christians not encourage one another to avoid pornography?
We will disagree on the impact pornography makes on society, but I find it odd that you get riled up about Christians encouraging other Christains to not use porn.
There are -some- people in the world who enjoy their sex differently than you do. That doesn't make them sinners, nor less worldly, or whatever other criticism you want to throw at them.
Those who enjoy sex in ways condemned by scripture, including lustfully viewing pornography (as opposed to apprectiating the human form in art, a fine line, I know) most certainly are sinning, whether they believe it or not, and whether I believe it or not.
And here we have, once again, a perfect example of Christian (and conservative) socialism; "For the good of the group, we must get rid of pornography. We must avoid it, for seeing people having sex will scar us forever."
Your accusation of socialism is rediculous. In fact I made it clear that these guys are NOT focused on legislation at all, but on providing a service to men – to help them develop character and virtues which lead to life and health.
Liberals often complain "if you care about the family so much, why don't you do something besides make laws that restrict everyone's freedoms?" So I provide an exmample and you spit on it with a rediculous accusation.
Christians are helping people get out of their sexual addictions and relational dysfunctions. That's more than laudable. I am standing up and cheering in my cube.
I think this like when the Puritans outlawed dancing. It was for basically, the same reasons. Dancing was immoral and led to sin. If baptists want to outlaw drinking in their religion or evangelicals want to outlaw porn in theirs thats fine, it's freedom of religion. Just don't don't take the freedom of beer, porn and dancing away from those who enjoy them.
I think this like when the Puritans outlawed dancing.
Not at all. Dancing is nowhere condemned in scripture, and you could make a good case that is would be supported. But lust is expressly condemned by Jesus and the OT. But if you can look at pornography for reasons other than lust (like, you are an artist), fine with me.
The naked human form is not dirty or wicked, it is beautiful. In fact, one of my favorite vacations was at Esalen in Big Sur, which has two "clothing optional" areas – the pool and the hot tubs, where no one, male or female, wears clothes. This new-age retreat center has interesting speakers, and wonderful food and atmoshpere. I have no problem seeing other people naked. And the same goes for nudity in artwork.
But porno is specifically geared at inflaming the sexual desires, objectifying humans for impersonal sexual purposes, and is a culture full of victims. The husbands who are spanking their monkeys to porno – they are lusting after other women, in a sense, "already guilty of adultery", in Jesus words.
I agree that outlawing such doorway activities that are not sinful in and of themselves, like dancing, card playing, watching movies, drinking, or looking at naked pictures, is a dumb thing to do. They may need to be regulated (and they are, by and large, to protect children), but porno itself is really not an innoccuous thing – it is more than pictures of the naked form, it is pictures intended to incite sexual desire and lust.
It should be discouraged among men who want to be good men, men of virtue and moral character. Men who are not interested in such things can continue to read porno.
Men who are not interested in such things can continue to read porno.
Got it, you don't like porn. You whine about porn. This conversation is over until you come up with something better other than your argument, porn makes people horney so its bad.
Seeker,
The issue is that you Christians are never satisfied with just abstaining from whatever it is that's turning you on; it's that you're always demanding that whatever's turning you on be banned. Banned from libraries, banned from radio, banned from television, banned from theaters, whatever. Christians can't get enough of banning that which titilates them. And that's where I object to movements like this. Its fine if Christians shouldn't be seeing naked bodies – because nudity equals pornography (according to John Ashcroft, one of your own) – but they shouldn't be telling the rest of us that we can't look at naked bodies.
The issue is that you Christians are never satisfied with just abstaining from whatever it is that's turning you on; it's that you're always demanding that whatever's turning you on be banned.
I have no desire to do such.
This conversation is over until you come up with something better other than your argument, porn makes people horney so its bad.
Actually, I just don't care to argue this point, but you can google for something like "dangers of pornography". These links look decent.
Subtle Dangers of Pornography http://tinyurl.com/pexse
Porn Plaugue http://www.leaderu.com/focus/pornog00.html
You won't be convinced anyway, I would guess, and may not have any desire to consider channging your opinion. Let's not waste our time.
We're not changing our opinions because we're not wrong. You are, so you should be the ones changing your opinion. And before you go thinking that as liberals we're suggesting that there are no dangers with porn, you're wrong. We'd all acknowledge that there ARE problems with aspects of the pornography industry, but that doesn't render pornography automatically bad.
We're not changing our opinions because we're not wrong. You are, so you should be the ones changing your opinion.
This is classic! The definition of a closed mind.
Seeker,
Please don't be ridiculous. You are the one with the mind closed to literally EVERYTHING but Christianity. Don't be ridiculous.