I have been harping on this for years, that yoga is one of my favorite spiritual disciplines (despite its Hindu origins). Now Christianity Today seems to give yoga the OK, years too late, but better late than never.
Also at CT, see Yoga: An Exercise in Discernment: How I submit the meditative practice to Christ.
Well, I'd have to say that it seems a bit odd. I mean, we don't practice hinduism or buhddism. We don't need too. Our spiritual discipline is not yoga. It's reading the Word, praying, and sharing the gospel. Why do we need yoga? Maybe you could do a bit more explaining on your view of this?
Tim
Seeker,
Oddly, I was going to go in the opposite direction, wondering why it was a big deal that you enjoyed yoga, even if its a Hindu tradition. So what? I like matzos, and I'm not Jewish.
As for Agent Tim – I mean, seriously? Who distrusts somebody who does something that isn't Christian. I'm sure there are lots of things that Tim does that aren't Christian in origin (sterilization of surgical tools during his dental procedues, as just ONE example).
Anyway.
I'm not saying you're not a Christian if you practice yoga…what I'm saying is why the need for it? I'd worry about the Hindu origins. Jewish Matzos are different. That still is in the history of Christianity. Jesus was Jewish, not Hindu. But I need to do more research on Yoga. The spiritual aspects concern me very much.
What is concerning about stretching?
Do you not eat Chinese food because its not in the Christian tradition? Do you not listen to music with a rhythm section because its not in the Christian tradition? Do you not like your dentist's tools sterilized because that's not in the Christian tradition?
What on earth is wrong with experimenting with things outside of your own tradition? And how will time to slow down and stretch and to think (about whatever you'd like to think about – Jesus, for example) concerning.
Today's Christianity does itself no favors by distrusting anything that isn't inherently Christian in nature. There's nothing wrong with sharing in the traditions of others.
I have nothing against the stretching. In fact, Yoga may be very good for your health, and you may enjoy it very much. But do I experiment with witchcraft because it is out of my "tradition"? I'll do some research on Yoga and get back to you on it ASAP.
But as I said, "The spiritual aspects concern me very much." Not the stretches.
Also, we don't dabble in sin right?
Also, I'll quickly add. Isn't Yoga's aim to connect you with the spiritual realm? Basically, connect with your own god or God Himself? What about prayer?
Also, Yoga says, "the paths are many but the truth is one." does it not? Hmmm. For some reason I hear the word "pluralism" come to mind.
I'm still missing the problem. Yoga in the United States is practiced as a form of physical betterment and meditation. Why can't you better yourself physically and think about God or Jesus or whatever else while you're doing it?
And I STILL don't understand why you're opposing the traditions of other cultures. And as for comparing Hindi tradition to witchcraft…well, I guess I'd say that as a nonChristian, I doubt you'd approve of me comparing your religion to witchcraft anymore than a Hindi enjoys it. Other religions aren't less than your own Tim.
Well, I am writing a chapter for my book (will i ever get it published?) on what Xians can and should learn from other faith traditions. But here is the idea.
There are two kinds of truth – general, or empirical truth, which is available to anyone, and revealed truth. The former is also known in xian circles as "general revelation." It refers to truths that can be discovered by anyone by experimentation and observation – like the truth of sowing and reaping, or karma as others call it.
Revealed truth is that which you can't determine that way – such as what happens in the life to come.
Despite the plethora of practical wisdom in Proverbs, Christians focus mostly on revelation, not general spirituality. In addition, due to an overemphasis on the falleness of the physical body, xians have not developed significant wisdom with respect to the body. And, due to an overemphasis on the fallen nature of man, they have also failed to develop significant ideas around self-knowledge.
I started yoga because I wanted an exercise regimen that was integrated with spirituality – the best thing xians could offer was "praise aerobics." What is great about yoga is that it is not just stretching, it is self-awareness – as someone said, yoga makes a good servant of the body. In general, xian teaching totally ignores any disciplines that allow you to focus on your body and listen to it without judgement. Xianity is very oriented to the mind, esp. evangelicalism.
"Other religions aren't less than your own Tim."
I respect other religions, but do not tolerate them in the sense that "all ways lead to heaven." I have to agree with seeker in the point that we "can and should learn from other faith traditions." We can learn truths (like sayings etc.) but not salvation. Many religions teach many good things. But that doesn't make them right.
"Why can't you better yourself physically and think about God or Jesus or whatever else while you're doing it?"
Sure you can. But not in a way that dishonors God. I think that seeker answered most of my questions. I'll continue in my study of the topic.
Tim,
Simply put, your attitude is about as unbecoming as I can imagine. Ignoring the fact that you're fifteen – which is difficult for me to do – you seem to genuinely believe that you're right, and that everybody else who isn't on the same page as you is wrong.
You're going to have a great time going through life with that attitude, and a particularly great time convincing others that you're worthy of being listened to. If your first thought is to look down your nose at everybody around you who doesn't share your particular worldview, you're not going to get very far.
Then again, you're fifteen. Perhaps you'll learn to put a damper on your attitudes as you get older.
So my attitude is unbecoming if I don't agree with all religions and all faiths?
I don't want to come across as saying "Yoga is wrong." I'm just saying that I would like to make sure that it's not. But it seems we've gone into the discussion of tolerance, one I'm ready to discuss here. Or you can check out my article on it here on Virtue Mag.
"Other religions aren't less than your own Tim."
Other religions are less than Christianity – mainly because no other religion is actually true.
Prove it Alex. Without a shadow of a doubt, prove what you just wrote. Then I'll submit to your argument.
Well for starts, there's the ground you're standing on Sam… I've got one post that talks about this: http://www.smarthomeschool.com/2005/04/world-in-w…
Since you're a guest on a Christian blog, you should expect people to assert that Christianity is true, and you should expect that it's going to be assumed Christianity is true from time to time (especially when they're discussing internal Christian issues like "should Christians do _______?") Not every discussion revolves around proving Christianity to you. This discussion revolves around whether or not Christians should be willing to do yoga. When Christians are arguing about Christian ethics, Christianity is rightly assumed to be true — otherwise, they wouldn't be arguing about *Christian* ethics ;)
There are other threads where it makes sense to say "I'm a non-Christian, prove Christianity to me" — but in this one, telling people to "prove it" is kind of pointless. They're arguing about what Christians should do (that won't bring harm to anyone either way); if you're not a Christian, it shouldn't matter one way or another what they decide, because you're not bound to behave like a Christian.
Alex King – no no, the ground that I'm standing on is evidence of millions of years of geologic change, not Christianity. (The difference? I neither know, nor care to explain, why the ground beneath my feet is here, although to be fair I assume that my geologic answer is correct. Alex is POSITIVE that he is right. Yet, he hasn't proven anything by pointing to an inantimate object and claiming God.)
LotharBot – what a stupid way to win the argument. "You're not in your own home, so don't bother asking questions, trying to understand or challenging assumptions." Or, to put it another way, don't bother stopping by my site – if you ever had – because we're not Christians and your opinion is totally invalid. Oh wait. That's really condescending of me. Fortunately, I've never written that.
I wasn't trying to win an argument — just suggesting that your question might be better suited to other threads here. Not *every* thread is "this is how to prove Christianity to outsiders" — contrary to popular belief, sometimes we want to talk with other Christians about Christian things, and when talking with other Christians we generally all begin with the assumption that Christianity is true and right. If we have to start from scratch on every discussion, we'll never get anywhere.
For the record: I totally agree with your statement that we shouldn't be afraid to learn from other religions and other cultures. I just think it's silly to yell at people to "prove it" when they, as Christians on a Christian website in the middle of a discussion of Christian behavior, say Christianity is better than other religions in order to support their position. For the purposes of the discussion on yoga, it suffices to know that we *do* believe that — you don't need to know all the details of exactly why to understand our arguments about yoga.
Otherwise, eventually, *every* discussion would deteriorate into "why do you think Christianity is true?" While that's a great question to ask and a great discussion to have, it's kind of out of place in a discussion of "should Christians do yoga?"
king didn't say that xtianity was better than other religions, or more true, he said that "no other religion is actually true." Sam demanded proof of that statement, not whether xtianity is true. If someone's going to make such a sweeping statement then they should be able to back it up. I don't think you need to attack all other religions as false to make a point contra yoga. It was gratuitous.
Of course, I'm aware that evangelicals generally believe that, and this is an evangelical blog, but those of us with other views have been specifically invited to participate, so it's entirely legitimate to challenge such statements (not require one to prove xtianity). If you don't want non-evangelical/fundamentalist xtians to participate here, say so.
If you would prefer I will point at an animate object and claim God ;)
The point is, however, you're looking through the glasses of "there is no God", and coming up with some faulty geololgy, if you'll excuse me. Even if I give you your millions of years of geological change, where did the rocks you're changing come from?
You could say Christians are just as at fault, we look through the Bible to determine the origins of the world. They are both faith, in a way. The difference is that science backs up our view.
I should also mention that I think it makes sense for you to challenge the truth of Christianity in an arguement about whether yoga is right for christians – if Christianity isn't true and all other religions other than it aren't wrong, there isn't much point in the arguement against it.
Louis wrote it better than I could have. I asked for something else – a proof of Christianity's superiority to other religions – and was instead told that I shouldn't question Christian theology at a Christian website. Now, this debate has descended in that which neither side can hope to win.
So, I revisit my original point – the practices of other religions aren't wrong, or evil, or objectionable (unless somebody gets hurt by them). And while yoga might hurt, particularly if you haven't stretched out, the notion that doing it is unbecoming to God is simply beyond the boundaries of reasonable discourse.
Back on the subject ;), I want to mention why this is even a question. For years, I have heard xians teach that even simple yoga is a doorway activity that could lead you into hinduism, kind of like "doorway" drugs that lead people into harder drugs, or like ouija boards leading people into the occult.
In general, I am not a fan of slippery slope arguments because they tend to (1) force people to the extremes of a position, and (2) they usually totally disallow a compromise position when such a position is probably warranted. In those cases, what is needed is for someone of even temerament and at least average intellect to take the time to elucidate the conditions under which the compromise position would work, and where the logical limits for that position exist.
In the case of yoga, I think that there is some merit to the argument that engaging in yoga could lead one into its Hindu underpinnings, which have a clearly un-Christian world view, and may even lead one to engage with some of the Hindu deities, which by xian definition, are probably demonic in origin.
However, yoga is generally built on a truth that Xians acknowledge – that man is divine in nature. So to know and love and examine the created self is an important part of spirituality – and one that Xians have partially ignored, due to the fact that they generally take the Fundamentalist approach to the self, which is that they acknowledge man's sinfulness, but not his divine image. (Humanists, btw, make the opposite mistake – seeing man as basically good, and NOT spiritually fallen – but I have described this dichotomy in Is Man Basiclly Good or Evil?)
This same argument *for* self love and examination is the reason why Xians should also benefit from the Buddhist practice of non-judgmental self-observation, one type of sitting meditation. But I digress.
Peter Toon, in his excellent book Meditating As a Christian: Waiting upon God (now out of print) had a chapter on this subject.
He basically warned that new Xians should probably not do yoga since its powerful truth and effectiveness might deceive them into thinking that its doctrines of god were also correct. However, more mature xians could do yoga at their own risk.
I agree with this position somewhat, although I am not as careful as most (to my own benefit and hurt, I admit). However, if someone had presented me with a more kind and appreciative view of what was true in other faiths, I probably would not have left xianity for 10 years of exploration in yoga and Buddhism before returning. I learned a lot, but in the end, determined for myself that the revealed truths of the bible, and the reality of the supremacy of Christ and the reality of the transcendant, loving God, were something I wanted. The twisted gods, or lack of god in other faiths is astoundingly obvious if you have been a Xian first. But I had to find out. Doh!
"I asked for something else – a proof of Christianity's superiority to other religions – and was instead told that I shouldn't question Christian theology at a Christian website."
You misunderstood me.
I did not say you shouldn't question Christian theology at a Christian website. What I said is that, for the purposes of a discussion of why Christians should or shouldn't do yoga, it suffices to know that Christians view their religion as superior to others (or, that some view Christianity as true and all other religions as false). Asking why they believe that is a good question, but it's really off topic.
For the purposes of this discussion, it makes sense to take that as a given, or at the very least, to state your disagreement and leave it at that. Dragging the topic into the realm of apologetics does nobody any good — you'll get a half-hearted attempt at proving Christianity true and other religions false, and you'll distract everyone from the discussion of yoga.
Let me repeat: I'm not saying "non-Christians should leave" or "non-Christians should stay out of this topic" or "don't question Christianity" (nor do I have the right to, since it's not my blog.) All I'm saying is, asking why Christians believe Christianity is true and/or other religions are false, and DEMANDING proof of such things, distracts us all from discussing the topic at hand. You'd said some good stuff up until that point, but the two of you were veering farther off topic with each post, so I thought it was time to cut off that line of discussion (but maybe the blog owners think differently…)
I'm going to stop distracting us, as well. Back on topic…
—
I had a discussion of a similar type on a Christian marriage board, specifically relating to whether or not Christians should read the Kama Sutra. Could it have great benefit to a couple's marriage? Sure. Does it make spiritual statements that are completely incompatible with Christianity? Probably. Most people came to the point of agreeing that more mature Christians could probably extract the worthwhile information without consequence, but that younger Christians should stay away from it because they might not have enough discernment to recognize the false parts of the spirituality therein.
Pretty much every other worldview has some worthwhile contributions. Worldviews don't survive for thousands of years if there's nothing worthwhile in them. I try to make a habit to understand what good things they do have, and I wish more Christians were willing to do that — ESPECIALLY pastors and other church leaders. Far too many simply say "nothing from any other religion can possibly be true", but what we need to do is look at other religions and other worldviews and disagree with the parts we must disagree with, but learn from the rest. Be cautious, for sure — but don't be so cautious that you never learn anything. Yoga can teach some valuable things about the way your body works, and those things are worth learning.
I just want to make it clear, as I think everyone else has, that in no way do I think that Sam, Louis (or Stewart or any other non-Christian) should leave. I love having you guys here to stir things up.
If those involved would like we can start up a "prove your worldview" post. (I'm not sure if Sam, one of the original instigators (and I mean that in the best possible way) ;), wants to go there as he has repeatedly said he doesn't care much for those type of discussions.) If we start one it would be open to any and all of these questions and calls for evidence that we have seen here, but without having to worry about working a reference to yoga in there somehow. ;)
That sounds great Aaron!
The original point stands – yoga is not an afront to Jesus H. Christ.
Nor is zazen.
To add to Sam's tongue-in-cheek summation, not only is doing yoga not an affront to the God of Christianity, but it is probably an affront to NOT consider the value in other faiths.
To write them off as "totally" wrong is lazy, stupid, disingenuous, and ultimately a lie that will cause people to doubt their faith (and rightly so).
We should instruct people in:
(1) the basic biblical principles about mand and God, creation, fall, and redemption. This includes the dual nature of man (made in the divine image, but fallen).
(2) basic principles of how to determine truth (epistemology), and about the two types of truth (empirical v. revealed)
(3) how to directly compare/contrast faiths so that we can affirm what is similar and/or true, and how to point up the differences and why we believe one or the other is true or mistaken.
My kid(s) (I only have one now) will be raised Christians, but will also be taught how to reason and ask the right questions, and make their own decisions about truth – they may discover truths I have yet to find. And they will have my permission to look where they may for truth – some places, with my warning, but always, with my belief that it is their life to live.
"To write them off as "totally" wrong is lazy, stupid, disingenuous, and ultimately a lie that will cause people to doubt their faith (and rightly so)."
The Bible clearly doesn't allow room for "other faiths". So there are two choices – either Christianity is all true and other religions are all wrong, or other religions true and Christianity isn't.
Alex, the Bible doesn't leave room for "other faiths", but that doesn't mean those other faiths are 100% completely and totally backwards. It means they have fundamental flaws — but they might also have a lot of worthwhile things to teach us.
This is something the church has done a really, really, really bad job teaching. Yeah, every other religion is flawed — but that doesn't mean every single thing every other religion says is wrong, it only means that they're wrong about and/or missing something important.
There are things to learn from [insert religion here]. Fundamentally, it fails to connect you to God — but that doesn't make it entirely worthless.
The Bible clearly doesn't allow room for "other faiths". So there are two choices – either Christianity is all true and other religions are all wrong, or other religions true and Christianity isn't.
This statement is correct on one level, and wrong on another. As I like to say "ambiguous absolutisms are always wrong." ;)
Your statement makes the case for why we must distinguish between empirical and revealed truth.
Empirical truth, sometimes called common or general truth, can be discovered by anyone by observation and experimentation. As an example, the truth of "sowing and reaping." Sure, it is called by other names like "karma" or "the law of the farm" (Covey). But by Alex's logic, if the Buddhist says it, it can't be true. But if the xian says it, it is! That is ILLOGICAL.
However, when it comes to revealed truth, that is, answers to ultimate questions you can't prove through observation and experimentation, then you have to choose whom you believe. Is man basically good or evil? What happens after we die? If there is a judgment, how do we pass the test? These are questions of faith on which faiths differ, and they can't all be correct – THAT is ILLOGICAL.
Alex, other religions are *partly* true. Even if you believe your current understanding of Xianity is all true (and we all find as we grow older that our earlier understandings had some severe misunderstandings, limitations, and errors), it is definitely incomplete.
My main argument for learning from other faiths is this: Xianity in our time has lost, abandoned, or never had some empirical truths, while other faiths have faithfully maintained and developed them. We can benefit from that. And, if we want them to see that our revealed truth about Jesus is correct, we must at least affirm the empirical truth they already have. This is what Paul the Apostle did by quoting the Greek poets to the greeks – he used their commonly held truth to introduce them to the gospel.
Also, our contemporary understanding of xianity is colored by our time and culture, and could therefore be out of balance or incomplete. This was echoed by C.S. Lewis, who recommended that for every modern xian book you read, you should read one from a previous era (or other culture) to help determine which concepts are timeless and true, and which are just the emphasis (or lack of emphasis) of your own time and culture.