Was Katrina God’s Judgement?

News, Worldview
12 Sep, 2005
24

It’s a question I have been mulling over for the last several days. Was Hurricane Katirna God’s way of judging a thoroughly decadent New Orleans? A friend of mine had posed this question to me shortly after the hurricane had made landfall. Since I had visited New Orleans last fall on a business trip and had observed some of the city’s infamous culture firsthand the question seemed to be a sensible one. But the more I reflect on the issue I have to wonder whether it was or not. This post by Michael Russell at Theologica (a new World Magazine blog) leads me to believe that it wasn’t based on the pattern of God’s judgements revealed in the Bible. What do you think?

Tags: News Worldview

Sam says:
12 September, 2005 at 1:42 AM
The next time a church burns down somewhere, I'm calling it God's judgement of Christians.
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danielg says:
12 September, 2005 at 2:29 AM
Aaron,
Perhaps you should elaborate on God's patterns of judgement, and how we can tell when something is a judgement rather than a chance occurrence.
I think we should be slow to say that a disaster is "God's judgement."
BTW Sam, I think you may be right – when churches get struck by lightning and burn down, it could be God's judgement. Perhaps they have idolized their building rather than loving people, or perhaps they have ordained a homosexual ;)
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Aaron says:
12 September, 2005 at 3:01 AM
Seeker, it wasn't me who posted this.
Sam, as Seeker said, it may indeed be that. I think we wade into dangerous terrority when we say that something was God's judgement, unless somehow we know for sure.
"His ways are not our ways, nor his thoughts our thoughts." We cannot totally comprehend the mind of God and it is foolish to try to speak as if we know His intentions for current weather occurances.
That being said, we do know that He seeks to work all things "to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose." He is using this to draw people to Him, but it is silly for us to assume that we can know if He was "judging" New Orleans.
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Sam says:
12 September, 2005 at 4:21 AM
In other words, when the tsunami struck all over Asia, that was for what?
(I'm sorry, but suggesting that a hurricane in which thousands may have died, and then blaming it on ONE city's indulgent culture, seems incredibly insulting, in the same way that blaming gays and feminists for 9-11 was an incredibly insulting thing for Jerry Falwell to do.)
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Daddypundit says:
12 September, 2005 at 4:26 AM
At first when my friend remarked that she thought God was judging New Orleans I could see some merit based on what I had observed when I had visited there last year. However, if I am correct in understanding what the Bible has to say about my own fallen condition then I am no better than the citizens of New Orleans or other areas affected by the hurricane. If you follow the link to the Theologica blog post the author actually argues rather successfully that it is not God's judgement but that natural disasters such as the hurricane or the tsunami that Sam mentioned are the result of living in a fallen earth.
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Aaron says:
12 September, 2005 at 6:04 AM
Sam, who are you arguing with? I haven't seen anybody here say that the hurricane was God's judgement.
Daddypundit said he considered the option earlier, but now has come to the conclusion that it was not the case in his opinion. Both seeker and I said we didn't feel it was.
Just wondering who's points you are debating.
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danielg says:
12 September, 2005 at 6:39 AM
Doh! Sorry Aaron.
My questions to Daddy remain. How do we determine which events are judgement and which are not? What were God's patterns in the past? Does God first judge the church for not being salt and light? How do we differentiate between cause and effect (like increased disease in the promiscuous) and judgement (are the natural consequences of actions considered judgement, or must judgment be a divine intervention?)
Inquiring minds want to know.
One of the most interesting biblical passages on Jesus' response to such "acts of God" is in Jesus' mention of the Tower of Siloam.
This seeming accident kills a bunch of people, and people ask Jesus "why do people suffer like this? Is this God?" Jesus doesn't answer them directly, but says "Unless you repent, you will perish likewise."
I interpret His response to be "don't try to deflect your own guilt by pointing out what you think is unfair about life or God's responsibility in good or bad things. Who cares what the answer to your question is if you are sinning against God yourself? Quit whining about what you can't understand, and foremost, make sure you are right with God, or else!"
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Louis says:
12 September, 2005 at 9:02 AM
This idea that god destroyed wicked New Orleans with Katrina is hilarious. Inadvertently, it destoys any idea of a just god, considering the amount of damage he inflicted on the rest of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama (not to mention the rest) in his desire to knock out N.O. What could we say of this god except that he's a being of indifference, incompetence and/or malice.
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danielg says:
12 September, 2005 at 12:24 PM
Again, Jesus' answer would seem to be
"Whether or not God destroyed N.O., YOU (meaning you and I) should repent and make sure we are right with God and not use that event as an excuse.
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Louis says:
12 September, 2005 at 1:22 PM
Yep, a classic non sequitor.
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Daddypundit says:
12 September, 2005 at 9:54 PM
I think the natural inclination (at least for many Christians) is to assume this is God's judgement. I made the same assumption. But the more I have thought about it the more that I don't understand. I think that's really the bottom line – that our finite minds cannot understand an infinite God. Rather than trying to put ourselves in God's position we should be responding in love to those who are hurting as a result of this tragedy. The post I cited suggested that based on the previous pattern of God's judgements revealed in the Bible that this disaster was not likely God's judgement. Who am I to say that it is otherwise? More importantly, why was I spared the fate that thousands have suffered? Certainly I am no greater than they are.
Seeker makes an excellent point. The church will also be judged. The book of Revelation makes it clear that the church will be judged for what they do (or fail to do). If I understand Romans 1 correctly, much of the cultural decay we see today is the result of people who have turned away from God. Depravity is the natural result of denying the authority of God.
Perhaps God allowed the hurricane to occur as a call for people to repent. Perhaps it is simply the natural consequence of living in a fallen world.
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Sam says:
12 September, 2005 at 11:29 PM
Aaron,
I think that the implied message here is that the Hurricane MIGHT have been God's judgement. Even if you don't agree, I find even considering the possibility rather offensive.
You guys have all posted that we need to stop the finger pointing and focus on the real needs of people devestated by the Hurricane – I'm all for it. But then you turn around and discuss, "Was this their fault?" And even if you arrive at the conclusion that, no it wasn't, there's still time spent almost blaming the victims.
And, I don't like that. Even a little bit.
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danielg says:
13 September, 2005 at 2:27 AM
Well, I can say that although no place is safe from natural disasters, some places are just accidents waiting to happen. Anyone who lives in such places is either poor (which is often the case), and/or ignorant of the risk, or ignoring it.
I can't believe that we are actually going to rebuild in the same stupid location. I think insurance companies should jack up the insurance rates for people who decide to live in high-risk areas, and I don't think we should bail them out during the next disaster, which is sure to come. Let them assume the risk of their obvious decision to live in such a place.
I know that might not be fair to the poor, who can not afford to live other places, but um, we should be discouraging living in such areas. However, I'm sure there's more to it than that – but from here, it seems dumb and frustrating to waste money on poor decision making.
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danielg says:
13 September, 2005 at 2:29 AM
Sam,
I guess then, you don't really care for the story of Soddam and Ghamorrah, in which the bible records that God destroyed the city for their wickedness.
But I think that a God of love is also a God of truth. If you don't punish wickedness, it will run amuck.
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Aaron says:
13 September, 2005 at 2:32 AM
Sam, I was the only one who posted about stopping the finger pointing. The others may agree with that, but I was the one who posted it.
And I have yet to discuss all the issues swirling around the responsibility of the aftermath. I don't think anyone else here has entered into the game of jumping on Ray Nagin or Gov. Blanco, etc.
People are going to question why this happened. Not everyone is as ignoring of the spiritual aspect of life as you are. Christians seek to balance their understand of a loving God with a fallen world.
You may not agree with these questions, but they are coming from all sectors of the religious and political world. Take my most recent post where the Louis Farrakhan, the Nation of Islam leader, said that the hurricane was the "wrath of God." Or religous environmentalists saying this is Mother Earth or Gaia punishing America and Bush for not signing the Kyoto treaty.
Everyone here has said that it was not God's punishment in their opinion. I understand your opposition to "blaming the victims," but religious people will always seek to ask why and seek answers for that.
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Corey says:
14 September, 2005 at 2:59 AM
There is a difference between God allowing something and causing it. God is the very sustainer of your life and mine. Our death may be at His hand, or simply because he allows it, both occur in scripture. His sparing and preserving our lives is because of His grace, not because we are good. The only occurances of God wiping our cities or civilizations is when they ALL turned against Him. (S&G, the flood etc.) That does not seem to apply to NO as hedonistic as it's prevailing culture may be.
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thisis says:
10 August, 2007 at 1:07 PM
Where is God's judgement on slavery in America?
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thisis says:
10 August, 2007 at 9:07 PM
Where is God’s judgement on slavery in America?
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Cedric Katesby says:
10 August, 2007 at 3:13 PM
God’s Judgement.
Talk about a hot topic.
Aaron said
“We cannot totally comprehend the mind of God…”.
Fair enough.
Seeker said “How do we determine which events are judgement and which are not?”
Excellent question.
Then ruins it by going off and saying later…
“Whether or not God destroyed N.O., YOU (meaning you and I) should repent…”
No, no, no. Let’s talk about the importance of repenting later.
Was Katrina God’s Judgement? Yes or no?
Or even "No Christian can say" perhaps?
Daddypundit says “…our finite minds cannot understand an infinite God.”
Fine.
So if a Christian does make a “God’s judgement” call (pun intended) then it’s bad theology because they’re just talking through their hat?
Seeker says “…no place is safe from natural disasters”.
Are natural disasters God’s judgement or are they ‘natural’? Define ‘natural’ how you want.
Or perhaps only some disasters are natural and others are supernatural?
Aaron said “…religious people will always seek to ask why and seek answers for that.”
Yes, and then many will label it God’s judgement. Are they correct?
Corey said “There is a difference between God allowing something and causing it.”
Huh?
God allowed Katrina to happen?
So, hurricanes were trying to take down New Orleans 24/7 since the last time, yet God was on duty forbidding the hurricanes to zap Louisiana?
And…then he changed his mind and said “Ah, go ahead and do it. I won’t stop you.”
This is a possibility? Really?
That’s your theological position?
This is your dog hunt, people.
Not mine.
However, there are others who seem pretty sure of themselves.
For example..
You have these people…
"What do you think about the Tsunami that hit Asia on December 26, 2004? Was it God's wrath? What about the children who were killed?" http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html#Tsunami
Then there are odd-ball incidents like this…
Texas Pastor Electrocuted During Baptism http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8DIM630N…
The issue can go political very quickly…
Was the Holocaust persecution or was it God’s Judgement? http://www.bethelministries.com/holocaust.htm
But it’s not just in the U.S……
Floods are judgment on society, say bishops. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/200...
Of course, how can we talk of God’s Judgement without mentioning an EXPERT on the subject?
Robertson suggests God smote Sharon http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/01/05/robertson.sh…
Like I said, this is not my dog hunt.
Yet, a part of me would really like to see some attempt at resolution on this from you all.
How does a 'real Christian' honestly detect God's Judgement in, say, the form of a disaster?
Is it even genuinely possible?
If it's not possible, then is there anything wrong with letting Phelps and the Westboro Baptists pronounce God's Judgement on all and sundry?
Good Luck.
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danielg says:
11 August, 2007 at 7:42 AM
Cedric, of course, has not theology that could evaluate whether or not certain things are God's judgments, though numerous biblical studies exist to explain such things.
As for slavery, many, including Abe Lincoln, believed that the awful Civil War was God's judgment for slavery.
If you study the scriptures, you will see that God's judgment comes in many forms. For example, you could study The five types of God's wrath as a beginning lesson.
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Cedric Katesby says:
11 August, 2007 at 6:24 PM
Seeker,
"Numerous biblical studies exist to explain such things".
There are? Excellent!
You've read 'em? Brilliant!!
So based upon your in-depth theological understanding of these matters, you would say that…?
(Katrina, Tsuanami, Texas Pastor Incident, The Holocaust, U.S. Civil War, Sharon's Stroke)
What's your call?
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danielg says:
12 August, 2007 at 10:00 AM
I'd say that if you want an up or down verdict on each one, you will be disappointed. When Jesus was asked such questions (was that God's judgment or what?), he replied this way (my paraphrase)
"Look you fools, if YOU fail to repent, you will suffer something equally bad or worse. Stop looking for reasons to blame God or others, or to make yourselves look so righteous – because YOU are in danger from your own sins."
That's what I'd say to you in trying to sort this out (although really, it sounds more like you are just looking to ridicule.)
I can give you principles from scripture that you can use to make up your own mind.
In fact, first, you need to understand the five types of God's wrath above. Once you demonstrate a working knowledge of that, perhaps you can move on beyond God's Judgment 101.
Then you need to have an understanding of things like the history of the Jews, and the redemptive plan revealed in the scriptures.
You must also realize that, while we can make biblical guesses at such things, who can say they entirely know the mind of God? Some things are, of course, clearer than others.
For example, as a general principle, we see that war and invasion are typical signs of judgment when a nation leaves God. Nations that suffer genocide from their own governments and their own people, and civil wars, most certainly are suffering such as a judgment from God for their lack of a biblical framework, lack of fear of God, and the preponderance of ill ideologies like atheism, marxism, and whatever other isms lead to such warfare.
We also see that, as Romans 1 reveals, when a nation accepts and affirms sexual sin, especially homosexuality, you can be fairly sure that God's next step is to abandon that nation to it's own folly. That abandonment, as discussed in the link I gave above, is something that John MacArthur teaches has already happened to Europe and the US, and is a form of judgment.
Is it any wonder that western nations are being invaded by Islamic immigrants who call for murder in their countries? I would venture to guess that the rise of Islam in a nation is God's judgment. It comes in right after the vacuum of tepid Christianity, secularism and atheism. But that's another subject.
That's my call. Some things clearly fit the biblical pattern and could safely be called evidence of God's judgment, while others may not be so clear. Not all sickness or natural disasters may be labeled as God's judgment. Some things must remain a mystery.
If you don't like mystery, as M. Scott Peck says, you won't like the spiritual journey. Spiritual sureness is only for spiritual children and control freaks.
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Cedric Katesby says:
12 August, 2007 at 6:39 PM
Seeker paraphrased Jesus…
"Look you fools, if YOU fail to repent, you will suffer something equally bad or worse. Stop looking for reasons to blame God or others, or to make yourselves look so righteous – because YOU are in danger from your own sins."
That's what I'd say to you in trying to sort this out (although really, it sounds more like you are just looking to ridicule.)
I can give you principles from scripture that you can use to make up your own mind."
…………………………
Ok, one final attempt.
(No, seriously. If you're uncomfortable with this whole line of questioning then we can make this the last posting and let this thread fade.)
Let's take a 'real Christian'.
Let's call him "Seeker".
Let's assume he has no problems with Jesus's admonitions about repentence because he certainly doesn't want 'bad things or worse' to happen to him.
He isn't interested in blaming God for anything.
Perish the thought.
Tries his very best to be not be overly righteous.
Doesn't do ridicule either.
Has read his principles from scripture from cover to cover and thought long and deeply over them.
(***No Sarcasm Intended, Work With Me on This!***)
So, after all this….
He's watching TV.
It's a news report on the Katrina Disaster.
Graphic, horrible stuff. A litany of trial and tribulation. (You get the idea.)
Then some no-name preacher gets a T.V. sound-bite to the effect that this is 'God's Judgement on N.O. because of immoral living or something'.
Does Seeker…
a) Nod his head in agreement?
b) Shake his head firmly and wish that the preacher would go back to the seminary and study the bible more?
or
c) Be mercifully interrupted by a knock at the door from the pizza delivery guy?
…………………………
Legal Disclaimer: None of the above answers will be responded to with ridicule or biting hyperbole.
Any and all characters mentioned are completely ficticious. Any similarities between said characters and actual people (living or dead) is purely coincidental.
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Jim says:
23 June, 2008 at 8:23 AM
Ok- I have read the comments- let me ask all of you- What did GOD say on the subject?
Each of us will be judged by the light we have- Who among us is sinless? NONE- So there goes the Death of the innocent argument as there is NONE innocent before GOD.
What has God used as judgements- Flood,Hail,EarthQuakes
drought,Ect,Ect,Ect,Ect.He used a Mule to speak to Balim- The Point is- God will use what HE chooses to use WHEN HE CHOOSES to use it.HE IS GOD & ALL KNOWING- WE ARE NOT.
Who Hardened the heart of Pharoh? God said HE did- WHY?
THAT he might bring HIS JUDGEMENTS upon Egypt & that HIS NAME might be PROCLAIMED through ALL the earth.
WHO IS IS CONTROL of the UNIVERSE? is it Man??? No- The Devil???? No- Then it must be GOD Who is in complete control- Look at Job-GOD ALLOWED HIM to be TESTED & SUFFER- Did God let Job in on what was going on????? Not UNTIL IT WAS ALL OVER & we have the book of Job today.
Also Remember – GOD CHASTISES THOSE HE LOVES These events may be Only Chastisement- Used by God to make us STOP/THINK/ & Carefully consider our ways-& REPENT. GOD
gave us everything we have & HE can & does take it away.
I'm living proof- In 28 of my 45 years God could have EASILY killed me & He would have been PERFECTLY Right & JUST in doing so. I'm still alive- but have very little & his Chastisement has been far more Gracious & Mercifull than I Deserve. When Judgement Falls- It is a LOT fiercer- Read Revelation-1/3rd of the earths population is DEAD!!!
if we have 7,000,000,000 people on this earth at the time His judgement falls Then 2,333,333,333 people will DIE In Just the FIRST wave- Then 1/4 of who is left will die- & What will He be useing?
WAR-FAMINE-PESTILENCE-PLAUGE-ASTEROIDS/METEORS-HAIL-EARTHQUAKES,ECT,ECT,ECT- Look it up & read it for yourself.
GOD DOES NOT CHANGE- EXAMPLE-
If He said homosexuality is an ABOMINATION & the Punishment is DEATH guess what???
Practice it & You can kiss your behind GOOD BYE UNLESS YOU REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just like EVERY OTHER SIN- YOU DO THE CRIME YOU DO THE TIME.
I Know this PERSONALLY because my first Girl friend left me for my best friend- She Got married & divorced 3 times then went GAY- She DIED at the age of 38 years old. She KNEW the Lord & fell away & Now SHE IS DEAD – COLD HARD FACTS.
He gives some sinners more time to repent than others- WHY IS HIS BUSSINESS- My Dad dropped dead right in front of me back in 1975- My Mom lived until 1998.I do not know the reasons. WHY hasn't God Wiped California off the Map Yet?
HE ALONE KNOWS & IT IS OUR JOB TO TRUST HIM & OBEY HIM.
TRUST ME-IF GOD SAYS IT- THEN HE WILL DO IT. HE KNOWS our every thought,word,motive,action.
Was Katrina,The tornado's,The Floods, the Fires ,The Droughts,earthquakes Gods Judgement? or was it CHASTISEMENT? & A WARNING.The quake in San Fransisco- If god let it happen at RUSH hour how many would have died? Each person must look at all the facts & decide fror them selves. Personally if your still alive I call it Chastisement- if your dead I call it Judgement.THINK ABOUT IT.
Let He who has ears to hear- let him hear.
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Was Katrina God’s Judgement?

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